Instrument Rating Checkride Equals Instrument Currency?

Chief Captain said:
Huh? Do you have a copy of that?
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http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/3739.PDF

"2. Absence of an installed clock. The Administrator charged that respondent operated the aircraft under IFR when he did not have the required clock installed in the instrument panel. The law judge agreed, rejecting respondent's arguments that a passenger had a watch with the same required functions (hours, minutes, and seconds), another instrument in the aircraft could substitute for the clock, and the weather was VFR...
Moreover, there is unrebutted evidence that the absence of the clock made the aircraft unairworthy in violation of § 91.29."
 
Blackhawk said:
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/3739.PDF

"2. Absence of an installed clock. The Administrator charged that respondent operated the aircraft under IFR when he did not have the required clock installed in the instrument panel. The law judge agreed, rejecting respondent's arguments that a passenger had a watch with the same required functions (hours, minutes, and seconds), another instrument in the aircraft could substitute for the clock, and the weather was VFR...
Moreover, there is unrebutted evidence that the absence of the clock made the aircraft unairworthy in violation of § 91.29."
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Sec. 91.205

Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:


(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in Sec. 121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ±80 degrees of pitch and ±120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with Sec. 29.1303(g) of this chapter.


(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.

(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.

(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.

(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).

(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).
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I'm know that the clock is required to be installed, but it's not exactly crystal clear that the instrument has to be installed in the panel of the aircraft... :dunno:
 
juxtapilot said:
I'm know that the clock is required to be installed, but it's not exactly crystal clear that the instrument has to be installed in the panel of the aircraft... :dunno:
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??? Use the one installed in your car??? Yes, facetious, but I don't get what you are referring to.
 
Rather than hitting the start button on the timer in a hold or on an ILS, I'll sometimes just check my wristwatch and us that.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
??? Use the one installed in your car??? Yes, facetious, but I don't get what you are referring to.
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Ha! No, not what I meant.. I mean that any sort of clock inside the aircraft should suffice... Doesn't say it must be installed in the panel of the aircraft, but that is what the FAA wants.
 
Blackhawk said:
Nothing says you must use the clock, just that it must be installed.
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But where does it say it must be installed? It's gotta be somewhere but it's not in 91.205... Only place it says that so far is that legal documentation. Definitely good enough for me, but I think if he had a better lawyer they could have argued that it doesn't say in the FARs that it must be "installed." I could be totally wrong though. :dunno:
 
juxtapilot said:
But where does it say it must be installed? It's gotta be somewhere but it's not in 91.205... Only place it says that so far is that legal documentation. Definitely good enough for me, but I think if he had a better lawyer they could have argued that it doesn't say in the FARs that it must be "installed." I could be totally wrong though. :dunno:
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You mean like the DG and AI in 91.205 don't have to be installed either? You can grab your new iPhone with it's gyro and satisfy the requirement for those two required instruments for IFR flight??

I'm not sure the infamous "better lawyer" with superpowers that make FAA attorneys and the NTSB bow down would have been any help. Do you really think that the FAA taking the position that "required equipment" means certified, installed, approved is an unreasonable interpretation?
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
You mean like the DG and AI in 91.205 don't have to be installed either? You can grab your new iPhone with it's gyro and satisfy the requirement for those two required instruments for IFR flight??

I'm not sure the infamous "better lawyer" with superpowers that make FAA attorneys and the NTSB bow down would have been any help. Do you really think that the FAA taking the position that "required equipment" means certified, installed, approved is an unreasonable interpretation?
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No idea. I guess that would suffice. When those fars were written there were no such things as iphones and whatnot.
 
Thanks Blackhawk.

The law doesn't say the clock has to be attached to the plane, so I don't see the problem with a wristwatch. However, it's a bit of a stretch to say that the passenger had a clock, so you're legal.
 
In the absence of specificity in 91.205, what about the Weight & Balance Equipment List in the POH (section 6 in Cessnas)? This list explicitly specifies whether instruments and equipment are optional or required for the aircraft to be airworthy.

This came up in my last flight review, and my CFI said an FSDO examiner had recently declined a checkride because the aircraft didn't have an OAT gauge and thus was "unairworthy." I suggested we look in the weight & balance equipment list, and the OAT was optional (duh!)... Placard it "Inop" in accordance with 91.213d... Problem solved.

I think there's also a way to look up the paperwork online that provides a comprehensive list of required equipment for the airplane's airworthiness certification, anyone remember how to do that? (Is it the type certificate for the airplane?)
 
inigo88 said:
In the absence of specificity in 91.205, what about the Weight & Balance Equipment List in the POH (section 6 in Cessnas)? This list explicitly specifies whether instruments and equipment are optional or required for the aircraft to be airworthy.

This came up in my last flight review, and my CFI said an FSDO examiner had recently declined a checkride because the aircraft didn't have an OAT gauge and thus was "unairworthy." I suggested we look in the weight & balance equipment list, and the OAT was optional (duh!)... Placard it "Inop" in accordance with 91.213d... Problem solved.

I think there's also a way to look up the paperwork online that provides a comprehensive list of required equipment for the airplane's airworthiness certification, anyone remember how to do that? (Is it the type certificate for the airplane?)
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Type Certificate Data Sheet. Most of the time the required equipment will be something like "CHT Probe must be installed on #5 Cylinder" or for all newer airplanes it will say that they must have a Serialized AFM on board.

Our flying club had two Cessna 152's, one was certified in late 1977 and the other in late 1978, one required a serialized AFM and the other didn't... got to explain that to a DPE once :P
 
trafficinsight said:
Type Certificate Data Sheet. Most of the time the required equipment will be something like "CHT Probe must be installed on #5 Cylinder" or for all newer airplanes it will say that they must have a Serialized AFM on board.

Our flying club had two Cessna 152's, one was certified in late 1977 and the other in late 1978, one required a serialized AFM and the other didn't... got to explain that to a DPE once :P
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Problem is that the TCDS doesn't contain all required equipment. Required equipment comes from three sources (all of which are mentioned in 91.213) - the certification and other regs, the TCDS, and manufacturer choices. The equipment list in the modern POH is probably the most comprehensive of the three but even can theoretically miss things that are required by later regs.
 
Chief Captain said:
Thanks Blackhawk.

The law doesn't say the clock has to be attached to the plane, so I don't see the problem with a wristwatch. However, it's a bit of a stretch to say that the passenger had a clock, so you're legal.
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"2. Absence of an installed clock. The Administrator charged that respondent operated the aircraft under IFR when he did not have the required clock installed in the instrument panel. The law judge agreed, rejecting respondent's arguments that a passenger had a watch with the same required functions (hours, minutes, and seconds), another instrument in the aircraft could substitute for the clock, and the weather was VFR...
Moreover, there is unrebutted evidence that the absence of the clock made the aircraft unairworthy in violation of § 91.29."

This came from an NTSB judge, so it is most certainly now the law unless you want to try your chances taking on the FAA lawyers. In the case upon which this was based the absence of the clock was but a minor point, but it was among a number of violations thrown at the pilot. Might they have left this out if the pilot had a watch? Maybe, but the way the ruling is worded- no installed operational clock, airplane is not airworthy for IFR operations. Period.

Edit-
This is the old 91.29:
91.29
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition
for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural
conditions occur.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
You guess it would suffice. The FAA would say it doesn't.
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Well I was curious if you had any other insight on where it might say "installed." It doesn't say that anywhere as far as I know, but it does say

"Sec. 91.205

Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements."

Since it says specifically, aircraft I think that would mean that the item (clock or AI, DG, etc.) would need to be in the aircraft installed for the specific plane. Since it doesn't say "Pilots: Instruments and equipment requirements" the wristwatch wouldn't be acceptable for the flight.

Guess I'm overthinking this a bit. At least over thinking is better than not thinking at all. :D
 
juxtapilot said:
Well I was curious if you had any other insight on where it might say "installed." It doesn't say that anywhere as far as I know, but it does say

"Sec. 91.205

Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements."



Since it says specifically, aircraft I think that would mean that the item (clock or AI, DG, etc.) would need to be in the aircraft installed for the specific plane. Since it doesn't say "Pilots: Instruments and equipment requirements" the wristwatch wouldn't be acceptable for the flight.

Guess I'm overthinking this a bit. At least over thinking is better than not thinking at all. :D
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"no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition."

That is saying it needs to be installed in the aircraft.
 
mojo6911 said:
"no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition."

That is saying it needs to be installed in the aircraft.
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Show me the word "installed" and I'll buy you beer. :)
 
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