Instrument long cross country reg

[MidlifeFlyer]

That is a situation where the instructor/student should divert to another airport and keep flying until they meet the requirement.

I'm surprised they didn't. Isn't a diversion exactly what happens in real IFR flight? There's so little in the way of ifr cross country training that a diversion should be part of a CFII's toolkit. That's not always the case, but to take the opportunity for a real need-to-divert scenario and throw it away...

 

[jrh]

I'm surprised they didn't. Isn't a diversion exactly what happens in real IFR flight? There's so little in the way of ifr cross country training that a diversion should be part of a CFII's toolkit. That's not always the case, but to take the opportunity for a real need-to-divert scenario and throw it away...

I hate to say it, but over the years I've lost a lot of faith in the "average" instructor in our industry. A lot of instructors would miss this opportunity, either because they aren't used to thinking outside the box, or else don't know the regs well enough to recognize a problem until after the fact.

 

[A150K]

I'm surprised they didn't. Isn't a diversion exactly what happens in real IFR flight? There's so little in the way of ifr cross country training that a diversion should be part of a CFII's toolkit. That's not always the case, but to take the opportunity for a real need-to-divert scenario and throw it away...

:beer:

 

[A150K]

AM I missing something here? How can an instrument approach be "closed"? I understand if it can't be used as an alternate airport in certain situations, but you can still fly a practice approach and have it count.

No, they have to be done under IFR:

(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—
(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.

An approached can be closed if the notes read, "Procedure NA when control tower closed." or "Procedure NA at night". That means you can do it as a VFR practice approach all day (or night ), but it cannot be done under IFR.

 

[amjon]

That is a situation where the instructor/student should divert to another airport and keep flying until they meet the requirement. The reg doesn't say anything about needing to terminate the flight at the same airport you took off from!

That's what should have happened, but the instructors didn't know that that one lesson couldn't be continued like most of the 141 lessons, so they planned to go up and do the approach the next day and were told they had to redo the whole flight. I'm sure the instructors were briefed on that after it happened.

 

[jrh]

That's what should have happened, but the instructors didn't know that that one lesson couldn't be continued like most of the 141 lessons, so they planned to go up and do the approach the next day and were told they had to redo the whole flight. I'm sure the instructors were briefed on that after it happened.

Ahh, got it. I'm used to training in a Part 61 environment. Never worked with 141 at all. That might explain some of the differences in judgment.

 

[djnk954]

That is an expensive way to learn how important thorough pre-flight planning is!

If I were the student though, I'd be highly upset with the instructor over this. It is his/her job to catch those mistakes BEFORE they happen. Then to not offer a diversion mid-flight after they discovered the closure is another error on both their parts.

I think it's 50/50. Instrument students need to check NOTAMs. Period.

 

[djnk954]

Ahh, got it. I'm used to training in a Part 61 environment. Never worked with 141 at all. That might explain some of the differences in judgment.

In defense of 141 (which I'm from): in my school it's very difficult to squeeze 2 lessons a week these days, we are VERY busy (and under manned). If my flight will go a little longer then planned, we need to ask for an extension. This way it will be difficult to simply continue until you meet the requirements. Sucks, but reality

 

[jrh]

In defense of 141 (which I'm from): in my school it's very difficult to squeeze 2 lessons a week these days, we are VERY busy (and under manned). If my flight will go a little longer then planned, we need to ask for an extension. This way it will be difficult to simply continue until you meet the requirements. Sucks, but reality

Part of the problem is not reserving enough time for contingencies during cross country flights. The more experienced I got as an instructor, the more I saw how it's nearly impossible to have too much time blocked off for XC training. I'd usually block off three or four hours for a simple "75 miles out, 75 miles back" cross country. For something like a 250 mile IFR XC, I'd reserve the plane for 5 or 6 hours.

Sometimes instructors are hesitant to do this because they don't want to lose revenue, as they're getting paid by the hour. I found I ultimately ended up billing more hours this way, not to mention my clients were more satisfied because nothing was ever rushed or cut short. And what's the worst that could happen? Get done an hour early? Great, you can actually have a minute to breath then ;-)

Sometimes management pushes for a tight schedule too, and that's....eh, that's a problem and discussion for another thread. It puts the instructor in a dilemma.

Even so, if that's the case with a situation like was mentioned here, I'd probably still text my coworkers to let them know what's up and overfly the schedule. Apologizing to a client at the home base who got bumped because you had their plane or were their CFI is a lot easier than apologizing to your instrument client for making them repeat a $500 cross country. Plus, when a person hears the reason for getting bumped, in cases like this they usually understand--what comes around goes around. They know it might be them on the screwed up $500 cross country someday and are glad the CFI is looking out for their best interest.

Everything is a balancing act.

 

[Ziggyfuzz]

Hey guys,

Had an interesting discussion with management at my flight school today regarding a 250 nm cross country I did with a part 141 instrument student last week. The reg reads as follows:

Is a distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing with one segment of the flight consisting of at least a straight-line distance of 100 nautical miles between airports;
(iii) Involves an instrument approach at each airport; and
(iv) Involves three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.

So, my interpretation is as long as it is 250 nm along victor airways/ATC routing, has one segment with a straight line distance of greater than 100nm, and includes different approaches at three airports- I've met all the requirements. Management tried to tell me that the flight had to be greater than 250 nm between all three airports- mileage along victor airways didn't count. After some explanation of my interpretation of this regulation, they changed their minds and they went from telling me to make the student fly the entire thing again to accepting what we did. Our route was: KSFB-ORL-LAL-PIE-KSRQ and KSRQ-KPIE-LAL-ORL-KSFB. Any opinions?

I am a dpe and your mangement is incorrect! I do ifr rides for 141 schools quite a bit.....

 

[Douglas]

Waiting for the promise of 61vs141.
141 your mother stinks of elderberry.
61 you're fat.

 

[A150K]

Waiting for the promise of 61vs141.
141 your mother stinks of elderberry.
61 you're fat.

This. Sounds like management wants to bill for more fligth hours than required.