Instrument long cross country reg

statusseeker1

statusseeker1

Well-Known Member
Hey guys,

Had an interesting discussion with management at my flight school today regarding a 250 nm cross country I did with a part 141 instrument student last week. The reg reads as follows:

Is a distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing with one segment of the flight consisting of at least a straight-line distance of 100 nautical miles between airports;
(iii) Involves an instrument approach at each airport; and
(iv) Involves three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.

So, my interpretation is as long as it is 250 nm along victor airways/ATC routing, has one segment with a straight line distance of greater than 100nm, and includes different approaches at three airports- I've met all the requirements. Management tried to tell me that the flight had to be greater than 250 nm between all three airports- mileage along victor airways didn't count. After some explanation of my interpretation of this regulation, they changed their minds and they went from telling me to make the student fly the entire thing again to accepting what we did. Our route was: KSFB-ORL-LAL-PIE-KSRQ and KSRQ-KPIE-LAL-ORL-KSFB. Any opinions?
 
statusseeker1 said:
Hey guys,

Had an interesting discussion with management at my flight school today regarding a 250 nm cross country I did with a part 141 instrument student last week. The reg reads as follows:

Is a distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing with one segment of the flight consisting of at least a straight-line distance of 100 nautical miles between airports;
(iii) Involves an instrument approach at each airport; and
(iv) Involves three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.

So, my interpretation is as long as it is 250 nm along victor airways/ATC routing, has one segment with a straight line distance of greater than 100nm, and includes different approaches at three airports- I've met all the requirements. Management tried to tell me that the flight had to be greater than 250 nm between all three airports- mileage along victor airways didn't count. After some explanation of my interpretation of this regulation, they changed their minds and they went from telling me to make the student fly the entire thing again to accepting what we did. Our route was: KSFB-ORL-LAL-PIE-KSRQ and KSRQ-KPIE-LAL-ORL-KSFB. Any opinions?
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I think management is trying to make more money off that evolution than they should be trying within the meaning of the regulation.
 
I operated under the same interpretation as you and it is how my IR XC were flown and accepted by the DPE. Never looked for a LOI as the reg seems straight forward with its wording. If it wanted 250 straight line, it would say so.
 
Make sure you do a landing at one of those airports to make it a XC. Nothing better than doing all missed approaches at the two other airports to make the flight not count as a cross country.
 
I'm glad you guys have the same interpretation as I do! And yes, a landing at one of the airports is crucial :) Not that I wouldn't like to do the flight over again, but I'm not sure the student would be so thrilled.
 
statusseeker1 said:
I'm glad you guys have the same interpretation as I do! And yes, a landing at one of the airports is crucial :) Not that I wouldn't like to do the flight over again, but I'm not sure the student would be so thrilled.
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I know 2 people that had to do the whole flight over because tower (and the only instrument approach) was closed when they got back, so only had 2.
 
It seems pretty clear to me in the FARs that you don't even need the 100NM straight line distance requirement:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/61.65!OpenDocument&ExpandSection=2

(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves--


  • (A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility; (B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
    (C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
 
at1024 said:
It seems pretty clear to me in the FARs that you don't even need the 100NM straight line distance requirement:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/61.65!OpenDocument&ExpandSection=2

(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves--


  • (A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility; (B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
    (C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
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If he's in a 141 school then whatever the FAA and the school approved, is what needs to be done.
 
amjon said:
I know 2 people that had to do the whole flight over because tower (and the only instrument approach) was closed when they got back, so only had 2.
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AM I missing something here? How can an instrument approach be "closed"? I understand if it can't be used as an alternate airport in certain situations, but you can still fly a practice approach and have it count.
 
We have had an interesting discussing this reg, but a different interpretation. Do you need to go to 3 different airports? Can you go to two airports and do 3 different approaches?
 
Matt13C said:
AM I missing something here? How can an instrument approach be "closed"? I understand if it can't be used as an alternate airport in certain situations, but you can still fly a practice approach and have it count.
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Maybe it was one of those "NA when Tower closed" approaches? Since the IFR cross country is done under IFR (i.e, "for real") I can see where one wouldn't want to count it.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Maybe it was one of those "NA when Tower closed" approaches? Since the IFR cross country is done under IFR (i.e, "for real") I can see where one wouldn't want to count it.
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I guess, but seems like an awful lot of money to spend when all they could have simply dropped off frequency flown the practice approach then come back on and never drop off the IFR clearance. It would be no different than flying into an uncontrolled field at that point, you are flying the approach as a practice but are under VFR with the instructor being the safety pilot. I don't see any reg that says you cant fly an approach under your own navigation in VFR and have it not count as an approach. Is there one?
 
Matt13C said:
AM I missing something here? How can an instrument approach be "closed"? I understand if it can't be used as an alternate airport in certain situations, but you can still fly a practice approach and have it count.
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Maybe ILS/VOR inoperative, but the student/instructor never checked NOTAM's
 
djnk954 said:
Maybe ILS/VOR inoperative, but the student/instructor never checked NOTAM's
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That is an expensive way to learn how important thorough pre-flight planning is!

If I were the student though, I'd be highly upset with the instructor over this. It is his/her job to catch those mistakes BEFORE they happen. Then to not offer a diversion mid-flight after they discovered the closure is another error on both their parts.
 
amjon said:
I know 2 people that had to do the whole flight over because tower (and the only instrument approach) was closed when they got back, so only had 2.
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That is a situation where the instructor/student should divert to another airport and keep flying until they meet the requirement. The reg doesn't say anything about needing to terminate the flight at the same airport you took off from!
 
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