Instrument Holds

[queeno]

THIS!

Unless ATC has a live flightaware display, they can't even tell what you're doing, nor do they really care I imagine. So long as you're appearing relatively where you should be, that's all that matters. Correct me if I'm wrong though, ATC guys.

HAHA funny like a clown. i almost bit on it though !!!!!

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I've found that having them find their outbound heading on the DG and holding their pointer finger and a thumb up to create the teardrop area(left hand hold, left hand teardrop and vice versa for a standard hold) helps them visualize the entry the best (basically inside the TD area is a teardrop, below the thumb is a direct and the upper half of the DG not in the TD area is a parallel). I've also had some who did best by drawing it on their kneeboard and figuring out the best entry that way, but most do quite well with the D.G. method.

I tend to favor the drawing method, mostly because it teaches the visualization of the hold and shows how the AIM entries actually make sense. If you, for example, teach what the AIM entries are (without the numbers) and draw the holding pattern and the airplane's relationship to it on a board, most students will invariably select an entry just like the ones in the AIM and from approximately the same angles. They just make sense. That's in part why holds on a moving map are so easy - you hardly need the GPS prompt for type of entry.

Here's "Hold southwest of the VOR on the 220° radial, left turns. Maintain 8000. Expect further clearance at 0000Z." You are arriving from the northest. "Copied" by drawing instead of by writing. I thing the entry is obvious just looking at it.

I'm not against the thumb, pencil, whatever on the DG method but I think it bypasses understanding of the hold in favor or a mechanical device.

But I admit to a lot of bias. If you are familiar with the related pencil-on-the-DG method, there are actually two versions of them, one that uses the inbound course for reference and one that uses the outbound. I was taught one of them during my instrument training (don't ask which) but ran into a CFII in my first IPC who insisted it was all wrong and I must change to the other one. Yeah, I should have told him he was an idiot but what the heck did I know? He screwed me up so much I could never use either one of them again.

I realize the thumb method doesn't suffer from the same issue; a meting that required you to turn your hand upside down would be practically unworkable. But the result of my experience was finding the drawing method and I because biased against any of the mechanical ones. I do use teach them though, if the drawing method make no sense to the student. People learn differently and a CFI's job is to teach in a way the student understands.

(BTW, the other outgrowth of that experience was the comment I sometimes make that the single worst thing a CFI can do is force a pilot to change a technique that works just because the CFI likes another one better)

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I usually just blunder around aimlessly on the protected side of the hold until they tell me I'm cleared for the approach.

I once took the turn knob and rolled it over to standard rate when given a hold in the Brasilia at a fix we were right on top of, and made the one turn that way, raw data, instead of going heads down on the typewriter.

"That's perfect, Buzzsaw 5386, you're recleared..."

 

[killbilly]

This holding stuff is pretty fresh for me. I have had to draw pictures of the hold on my little notepad to make sure I do them right.

Drawing directly on the charts in Foreflight was REALLY helpful to visualize what needed to be done.

 

[USMCmech]

(BTW, the other outgrowth of that experience was the comment I sometimes make that the single worst thing a CFI can do is force a pilot to change a technique that works just because the CFI likes another one better)

This is a common problem with inexperienced, time building, CFIs. They often think that they way they learned a procedure is the ONLY way it can be done or even worse, the way it MUST be done. In reality, there are many different ways to skin a cat and different methods will work better for different students.

 

[A150K]

This is a common problem with inexperienced, time building, CFIs. They often think that they way they learned a procedure is the ONLY way it can be done or even worse, the way it MUST be done. In reality, there are many different ways to skin a cat and different methods will work better for different students.

It's even worse when they work for the same large pilot factories in which they started their own pilot training about a year or so before obtaining their CFI's..

 

[X-Forces]

Was your instructor exposed to the UK by any chance? This is standard fare in UK ME-IR instruction - for many years only staff examiners employed by the CAA were used and they expected all sorts of daft stuff on NDB holds (VORs were too easy!) - they expected perfection. The idea is you check at 90/60/30 to inbound QDM to determine if you are wide or tight and correct appropriately to establish inbound.

NDB dip just makes it harder. At 60 to go, the QDM should be ~10° off the inbound, and at 30 to go, the needle should be on the inbound. It's massively overcomplicating it, but that was what we had to do to get past the test. If you didn't pass first time, it was almost impossible to get a job too!

I would rather crash the plane then do an NDB hold!!!

At least crashing the plane would be quick, and potentially painless.

 

[thevideographer]

I would rather crash the plane then do an NDB hold!!!

At least crashing the plane would be quick, and potentially painless.

It's not that hard if you don't overcomplicate it with diagrams and rules of thumb.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

It's not that hard if you don't overcomplicate it with diagrams and rules of thumb.

I finally figured out (maybe) NDBs while working on my II. I never could do them. Hold or approach, they made absolutely no sense to me. A friend (also bad at NDBs) and I used to fly every month for currency so I began experimenting on him with an idea. The result was a bit embarrassing - he started flying them great; much much better than me.

...and then along came GPS...

 

[thevideographer]

The trick with NDB holding is to figure out what headings you want to fly before you even get there. 2 minutes out from the hold you say "okay, when I see the needle swing I start a standard rate turn to 350, then fly for a minute, then start a standard rate right turn to xxx" The ADF itself can be used for reference once you get there. Like others said, it doesn't have to be perfect.

 

[Toobdrvr]

LSK-Hold-confirm direction, inbound, leg length-insert...

 

[X-Forces]

It's not that hard if you don't overcomplicate it with diagrams and rules of thumb.

I've done more then I can count, and successfully taught even more (They are still widespread throughout China). Still would rather crash the plane!

I would joke with my students some times, I would say "For all the things you guys (Chinese) take from the U.S.A, reverse engineer, and then mass produce for the Chinese market, why do you guys take back a VOR with you!! I'm sure no one would miss the one in Buckeye for at least a week, I'll even help you pack it up. Maybe that way we can finally knock off some of this NDB training!"