Instrument Ground Instructor and sim training?

[J777Fly]

Hi, Can someone clear this up for me please;

Can an Instrument Ground Instructor teach and endorse a log book of a student, for their instrument currency training using an approved simulator or Advanced Training Device?

I ask because some people have said yes (including a very experienced CFII I spoke to), while others say no.

 

[jaded]

If I remember correctly and it's been a while since I was an IGI/CFII. IGI can only teach theoretical knowledge for instrument. Ie; teach then endorse the logbook for a written test. If I'm not mistaken, you can teach a student on the sim all you want but that student can not log that time and count it towards an instrument rating. The student CAN log it but it does not fulfill what's required whether its part 61 or 141. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, my instructor ratings have all been expired for years.

It seems as though I've misread your post as well... Lol. As far as instrument currency, I do not know... Sorry for my quick response without reading your post thoroughly.

 

[Ajax]

I have been told yes by one fed and no by another.

It's not clear, to my knowledge and to justify it you have to dance through the regs:

This would be for an IPC:

61.57(d)

(1) The instrument proficiency check must be—​

(ii) For other than a glider, in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category​

(2) The instrument proficiency check must be given by—​

(iv) An authorized instructor​

So, an IPC can be done by an authorized instructor in a flight simulator. An authorized instructor is defined as:

61.1(b)

(2) Authorized instructor means—​

(i) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.217, when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;​

An authorized instructor includes a ground instructor when conducting ground training. An instrument ground instructor can provide:

61.215

(c) A person who holds an instrument ground instructor rating is authorized to provide​

(1) Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for the issuance of an instrument rating under this part;​

(2) Ground training required for an instrument proficiency check​

Ground training is defined as:

61.1(b)

(9) Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.​

​

Ground training is training other than flight training, so flight training is:

61.1(b)

(7) Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.​

​

Flight training is other than ground training and in an aircraft

1.1

Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.​

​

​

This implies that an IGI could instruct in a simulator because:

1. Training must be done by an authorized instructor
2. An IGI is an authorized instructor
3. An authorized instructor can provide ground training
4. Ground training is anything other than flight training
5. Flight training is anything other than ground training, in an aircaft
6. A simulator is not an aircraft

This is probably the roundabout way other instructors have justified it's legality.
BUT, the other side of the token is that 61.215 defines what a ground instructor can provide, which doesn't explicitly state sim training. Also, keep in mind that a ground instructor is not required to hold a pilot certificate. Now, if I were just an IGI with no time whatsoever, would you feel comfortable flying in IMC with your friends and family because I said you were good? Dancing through the regs as stated above and it would seem legal, but is it a good idea? Probably not.

I know that it would seem kind of cool to finally sign someone else's logbook, but remember that anytime you put your name in someone's logbook as an instructor and with the purpose of furthering their legal abilities you bear some responsibility and liability. If I were to sign someone off for an IPC today, and tomorrow they best MDA/DA and bend metal, then my signature in that logbook would raise a few eyebrows.

 

[flyingbum]

61.215 (c) (2)
Does say "ground training required for an instrument proficiency check"

So I'm not sure, that's a good question? 61.215 does not mention anything about FTD, ATD's etc...

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Unfortunately, my semi-educated guess is probably no (is that enough hedging?). Here's why:

In 2008, the Chief Counsel issued an opinion stating that a ground instructor could not do an IPC in a simulator or FTD. It didn't deal specifically with other types of endorsements but the logical extension of the reasoning used would lead to the conclusion that anything that is done in simulated instrument flight in a ground device that requires an authorized instructor requires a CFII.

==============================
an Instrument Ground Instructor (IGI) is not an "authorized instructor" who can endorse for the instrument
proficiency check required by § 61.57( d). The flight proficiency check contains a flight portion and hence requires an authorized flight instructor.

Moreover, § 61. 193(a) states that a CFI is authorized to give appropriate endorsements that "relate to" an instrument rating only "within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate". Therefore, only a certified instrument flight instructor (CFII), who holds an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate, which is appropriate to the category and class of the aircraft for which the instrument proficiency check is being conducted in, is authorized to endorse for passing that instrument proficiency check
==============================

http://tinyurl.com/76lqjv8

My hesitance is that it sounds a little harsh since the FAA at least intended (they screwed up the text of the rule) to remove any requirement for a CFI at all when a pilot was doing sim flights for currency (as opposed to getting training or evaluation).