Instructing w/out proper endorsements

M

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
Questions for you all -

1) Can a CFI instruct in a high performance for someone who already has their high performance and log it as PIC?

2) Can a CFI instructing in a high perf for someone who already has their high perf/IR log an instrument approach in their book during actual IMC?


(Midlife in 5..4..3..2..1..)
 
Yes

and

Yes

FAR 61.51

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
 
"FAR 61.51
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor"


You're missing the point. If a CFI doesnt have a high perf endorsement, can they =act as pilot in command= of a high performance aircraft and log it as such?? If you dont have your complex, can you personally go act as PIC of a complex aircraft?

See my point?
 
meritflyer said:
"FAR 61.51
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor"


You're missing the point. If a CFI doesnt have a high perf endorsement, can they =act as pilot in command= of a high performance aircraft?? If you dont have your complex, can you personally go act as PIC of a complex aircraft?

See my point?
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter. CFI limitations only apply to Cat 2 and Cat 3 or Aircraft requiring a Type rating.
 
This seems to be a really good question. In my opinion, which really means jack since I have 0 dual given, I would say that it would be legal as dual given since the student would be PIC by already having the proper endorsements, but I don't see how you could log it as PIC since that would fall under a different category than dual given and you don't have the endorsement yourself.

I'm looking forward to hear an experienced answer to this....
 
meritflyer said:
"FAR 61.51
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor"


You're missing the point. If a CFI doesnt have a high perf endorsement, can they =act as pilot in command= of a high performance aircraft and log it as such?? If you dont have your complex, can you personally go act as PIC of a complex aircraft?

See my point?
Click to expand...

I think you're confused by thinking that ACTING and LOGGING are the same thing. A CFI may NOT act as PIC in a high performance aircraft without the appropriate endorsement. They may however log that time as PIC when giving instruction under the regulation quoted above.

So in the original question we assume that in all other respects the pilot who has their high performance endorsement is legal to act as PIC and that they are acting as PIC, the CFI is not acting as PIC, does not need to meet ANY of the requirements to act as PIC in a aircraft but CAN log the time as PIC under 61.51.
 
CFIse said:
I think you're confused by thinking that ACTING and LOGGING are the same thing. A CFI may NOT act as PIC in a high performance aircraft without the appropriate endorsement. They may however log that time as PIC when giving instruction under the regulation quoted above.

So in the original question we assume that in all other respects the pilot who has their high performance endorsement is legal to act as PIC and that they are acting as PIC, the CFI is not acting as PIC, does not need to meet ANY of the requirements to act as PIC in a aircraft but CAN log the time as PIC under 61.51.
Click to expand...
Exactly. :)

You explained it nicely.

However I still think that you may ACT as PIC also, doesn't the commercial license supercede the need for the Complex, High Perf, and High Altitude Endorsements? I might be completely off base, but a good portion of the commercial material has to do with High performance and High altitude operations. You are also require to do the test in a Complex, but I don't see where you need a complex endorsement after getting your commercial license.
 
"Doesn't matter. CFI limitations only apply to Cat 2 and Cat 3 or Aircraft requiring a Type rating"

Thats a load. Care to elaborate?
 
desertdog71 said:
Exactly. :)

You explained it nicely.

However I still think that you may ACT as PIC also, doesn't the commercial license supercede the need for the Complex, High Perf, and High Altitude Endorsements? I might be completely off base, but a good portion of the commercial material has to do with High performance and High altitude operations. You are also require to do the test in a Complex, but I don't see where you need a complex endorsement after getting your commercial license.
Click to expand...

No you can not =act= as PIC without the proper endorsements. The regulations are very clear about what you need to =act= as PIC of a complex, high performance, and pressurized (high alt) aircraft.

The commerical license does what?? No. It doesnt allow you to go ahead and operate high perf or high altitude aircraft without the proper ground/flight training in the FAR specified subjects and the appropriate endorsements. The commercial license and limitations are set forth in AC 120-12A, 61.133, and part 119.1(e).

Go read 61.31(e)(f). It clearly says no person may ACT as PIC for the aircraft specified. Its as you were flying IMC with your instructor w/out you instrument rating. You were logging PIC but were not acting as PIC.
 
meritflyer said:
No you can not =act= as PIC without the proper endorsements. The regulations are very clear about what you need to =act= as PIC of a complex, high performance, and pressurized (high alt) aircraft.

The commerical license does what?? No. It doesnt allow you to go ahead and operate high perf or high altitude aircraft without the proper ground/flight training in the FAR specified subjects and the appropriate endorsements. The commercial license and limitations are set forth in AC 120-12A, 61.133, and part 119.1(e).

Go read 61.31(e)(f). It clearly says no person may ACT as PIC for the aircraft specified. Its as you were flying IMC with your instructor w/out you instrument rating. You were logging PIC but were not acting as PIC.
Click to expand...

So riddle me this Batman. If you have a Commercial SE license do you also need a Complex Endorsement?

How the hell can you endorse someone to fly a Complex, High Perf, Tailwheel, or High Altitude yet not have these endorsements yourself?

It does say Endorsement form an Authorized Instructor. Authorized Instructor definition in Part 61.1 makes no mention of needing these endorsements. Yet you can give them to your students?

Something does not make sense at all here.
 
desertdog71 said:
So riddle me this Batman. If you have a Commercial SE license do you also need a Complex Endorsement?

How the hell can you endorse someone to fly a Complex, High Perf, Tailwheel, or High Altitude yet not have these endorsements yourself?

It does say Endorsement form an Authorized Instructor. Authorized Instructor definition in Part 61.1 makes no mention of needing these endorsements. Yet you can give them to your students?

Something does not make sense at all here.
Click to expand...

You absolutely need a complex endorsement to take your commercial-initial SEL checkride. You need to have met the requirements set forth by the 61.129. You also need to provide a complex aircraft which is set forth in the Commercial PTS on pg. 7 assuming you are taking your commercial initial checkride. If it were an add-on, you would not need to bring a complex aircraft since you already took you initial in such.

So a CFI, such as myself, can not issue you a high performance endorsement if I myself do not have a high performance. I can endorse you to fly a complex though since I have a commercial SEL (FYI a complex is also required for your CFI initial to perform takeoffs, landings, and appropriate emergency procedures.)

Dont be confused by the term 'authorized instructor'. Remember that an IGI (instrument ground instructor) can perform IPCs as long as they are executed in a appropriate flight training device. An AGI can give you an endorsement to take a written exam. There are several forms of 'authorized instructors'. AGI, IGI, CFI, CFII, MEI are all unique examples.
 
meritflyer said:
You absolutely need a complex endorsement to take your commercial-initial SEL checkride. You need to have met the requirements set forth by the 61.129. You also need to provide a complex aircraft which is set forth in the Commercial PTS on pg. 7 assuming you are taking your commercial initial checkride. If it were an add-on, you would not need to bring a complex aircraft since you already took you initial in such.

So a CFI, such as myself, can not issue you a high performance endorsement if I myself do not have a high performance. I can endorse you to fly a complex though since I have a commercial SEL (FYI a complex is also required for your CFI initial to perform takeoffs, landings, and appropriate emergency procedures.)

Dont be confused by the term 'authorized instructor'. Remember that a IGI (instrument ground instructor) can perform IPCs as long as


they are executed in a appropriate flight training device. An AGI can give you an endorsement to take a written exam. There are several forms of 'authorized instructors'. AGI, IGI, CFI, CFII, MEI are all unique examples.
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Well thanks. I learned something else today. Been PWNED twice today...LMAO!!!!!!
 
You got it bud! We're all here to help. I ask private pilot like questions all the time. We hear one thing in training and then a CFI tells us something different. This crap happens all the time to me. I teach one thing then a student says "well, my other CFI told me you can do this _____" (insert any BS here). In CFI school, my CFI contradicted nearly everything I ever learned. Thats why I bring it to the experts here for debate.
 
I thought I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground.

Seriously, that was a good question that I hadn't heard before. I know there are lots of others I haven't heard yet, but I kind of like discussing off-the-wall FAA crap. Thanks for the explanation.

BTW, to add to meritflyer's statement on CFI's above, I also had a different instructor tell me that there were no PTS standards for flight proficiency for the CFI checkride. I walked around for a week thinking this was gospel until I actually sat down and read the CFI PTS.
 
triplec76 said:
BTW, to add to meritflyer's statement on CFI's above, I also had a different instructor tell me that there were no PTS standards for flight proficiency for the CFI checkride. I walked around for a week thinking this was gospel until I actually sat down and read the CFI PTS.
Click to expand...

Yep. The CFI flying standards are commercial standards. The PTS is a great reference and actually has a TON of information in the introduction pages. I was surprised. I actually spent about 3 hours on my initial reading it with my inspector and defining everything in it. Wheeww!!
 
I think it helps to understand a couple of basic concepts:

1. A CFI certificate is different from a pilot certificate.
2. The technical legal requirements for acting as PIC and acting as an instructor are different.
3. A CFI does not need to be acting as PIC when teaching.
4. A CFI's ability to log PIC (and certain other stuff) while instructing is based solely the act of giving instruction.

So, may a CFI with one leg and no medical certificate who does not have a high-performance endorsement and hasn't had a FR or been instrument current in 20 years give instrument training and log PIC in actual in a high performance airplane to a pilot who is instrument current, has the proper endorsements and is acting as PIC.

(The second question raises the separate issue of whether a CFI may ever log a student's approaches for currency, which gets argued plenty by itself)
 
Yes. A CFI may exercise instructor privelages if not acting as PIC or a req'd crew member without a medical. You may also exercise privelages of a ground instructor, serve as an examiner or check airman during the administration of a test for a certificate, or when taking a test or check for a certificate, rating, or authorization conducted in a flight sim or FTD.
 
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