Inside the FAF....
- Thread starter Malko
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Tired
New Member
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First off, I didn't know that light airplanes were not "real" airplanes...let me go subtract a bunch of time out of my log book.
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Then why did you say this?
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Whoops. Sorry I did say that...didn't mean it.
Yes, there are differences when it comes to landing...minor differences. Sure techniques vary, but the idea is the same, bring it down to runway, power off at some point, and slow the rate of descent. This isn't any big flight school crap, this is what I've found on my own. As far as the flying other then landings...come on, it's not that much different.
I'd encourage you to ask your mentor about the rudders....I just don't think the DC-9 will allow you use the rudders like that. Most airplanes with yam dampers will FIGHT you (some harder then others) if attempt to make any kind of turn with the rudders.
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First off, I didn't know that light airplanes were not "real" airplanes...let me go subtract a bunch of time out of my log book.
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Then why did you say this?
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoops. Sorry I did say that...didn't mean it.
Yes, there are differences when it comes to landing...minor differences. Sure techniques vary, but the idea is the same, bring it down to runway, power off at some point, and slow the rate of descent. This isn't any big flight school crap, this is what I've found on my own. As far as the flying other then landings...come on, it's not that much different.
I'd encourage you to ask your mentor about the rudders....I just don't think the DC-9 will allow you use the rudders like that. Most airplanes with yam dampers will FIGHT you (some harder then others) if attempt to make any kind of turn with the rudders.
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
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I'd encourage you to ask your mentor about the rudders....I just don't think the DC-9 will allow you use the rudders like that. Most airplanes with yam dampers will FIGHT you (some harder then others) if attempt to make any kind of turn with the rudders.
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Well, I just asked him, he's sitting here next to me while I write this (he's my father, btw), and he said yes he did use rudders in the -9. The yaw dampener just automatically cancelled out any tendancy for the aircraft to dutch roll -- it would not block the rudder out completely. And again this is for very small one, or two degree maximum, heading changes. Not full out turns. And in a jet it doesn't take much coming, down the ILS at 135mph (120kts) to effect a change in heading thus there's not much in the way of noticble yaw. His actual words "it just takes too long to roll that big old wing (the -9 has a wingspan of 109'+/-)."
I'd encourage you to ask your mentor about the rudders....I just don't think the DC-9 will allow you use the rudders like that. Most airplanes with yam dampers will FIGHT you (some harder then others) if attempt to make any kind of turn with the rudders.
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Well, I just asked him, he's sitting here next to me while I write this (he's my father, btw), and he said yes he did use rudders in the -9. The yaw dampener just automatically cancelled out any tendancy for the aircraft to dutch roll -- it would not block the rudder out completely. And again this is for very small one, or two degree maximum, heading changes. Not full out turns. And in a jet it doesn't take much coming, down the ILS at 135mph (120kts) to effect a change in heading thus there's not much in the way of noticble yaw. His actual words "it just takes too long to roll that big old wing (the -9 has a wingspan of 109'+/-)."
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
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Having spoken my 'reference heading' mantra, all I will add is that if someone can use rudder to change bank 2 or 3 degrees, then why not use a cordinated turn to do the same.
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Because, again, near the Decision Height where the needles get extremely sensitive, rolling-in to bank to correct for any deviation takes too long. By the time you roll in you've overcorrected. Just slide a little rudder in and you'll be back on heading with little trouble. Instead of slamming me and/or doubting me (not that you are bluelake) try it once or twice. Then if you don't like it don't do it anymore.
Look, all I'm "offering" here, guys, is just another way to do the same thing.
Having spoken my 'reference heading' mantra, all I will add is that if someone can use rudder to change bank 2 or 3 degrees, then why not use a cordinated turn to do the same.
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Because, again, near the Decision Height where the needles get extremely sensitive, rolling-in to bank to correct for any deviation takes too long. By the time you roll in you've overcorrected. Just slide a little rudder in and you'll be back on heading with little trouble. Instead of slamming me and/or doubting me (not that you are bluelake) try it once or twice. Then if you don't like it don't do it anymore.
Look, all I'm "offering" here, guys, is just another way to do the same thing.
Tired
New Member
Fine. I talked to one of our DC-9 pilots and he's never heard of using the rudders like that. Moreover, at our company it's considered sloppy techinique to do that. You get in the sim here and start doing that and you'll hear, "no...no...no..." from the instructor. I personally wouldn't do it....I think it gives a bad ride, but I guess I'll agree that it isn't wrong to use the rudders like that.
Bumblebee
Commodore
The two basic methods used for instrument flying are “control and performance” (used mainly by jets) and “primary and supporting” used by the rest of us in GA.
The definition of primary and supporting instruments from the Instrument Flying Handbook FAA-H-8083-15;
“For any maneuver or condition of flight, the pitch , bank, and power control requirements are most clearly indicated by certain key instruments. The instruments that provide the most pertinent and essential information will be referred to as primary instruments. Supporting instruments back up and support the information shown on the primary instruments.”
Inside the FAF the instruments that are most important and that should be the same on every approach will be the LOC and GS. Depending on wind direction and ground speed you will see different indications from your VSI and DG. This isn’t to say you should fixate on any of your instruments, but you want to react to the deviation(deflection) to the primary instrument. (Your reactions should also be very fine as I earlier established) Example; if your VSI changes from 500 to 400 feet per minute and your GS is remaining steady are you going to go get the 500 back? No, you are going to adjust any of your instruments to show the proper indication on the LOC and GS. The fact that they give the most pertinent information (where you are on the glideslope path) is what makes them primary inside the FAF .
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. DO NOT make a correction while looking at the needles (assuming you have a CDI) you will overcorrect everytime.
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Agreed. After determining that a change (LOC) needs to be made, make the change by looking at the DG. Should only be within 2 degree correction (within the headiing bug or Capt. bars if you got 'em!).
The definition of primary and supporting instruments from the Instrument Flying Handbook FAA-H-8083-15;
“For any maneuver or condition of flight, the pitch , bank, and power control requirements are most clearly indicated by certain key instruments. The instruments that provide the most pertinent and essential information will be referred to as primary instruments. Supporting instruments back up and support the information shown on the primary instruments.”
Inside the FAF the instruments that are most important and that should be the same on every approach will be the LOC and GS. Depending on wind direction and ground speed you will see different indications from your VSI and DG. This isn’t to say you should fixate on any of your instruments, but you want to react to the deviation(deflection) to the primary instrument. (Your reactions should also be very fine as I earlier established) Example; if your VSI changes from 500 to 400 feet per minute and your GS is remaining steady are you going to go get the 500 back? No, you are going to adjust any of your instruments to show the proper indication on the LOC and GS. The fact that they give the most pertinent information (where you are on the glideslope path) is what makes them primary inside the FAF .
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. DO NOT make a correction while looking at the needles (assuming you have a CDI) you will overcorrect everytime.
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Agreed. After determining that a change (LOC) needs to be made, make the change by looking at the DG. Should only be within 2 degree correction (within the headiing bug or Capt. bars if you got 'em!).
Mavmb
Well-Known Member
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Fine. I talked to one of our DC-9 pilots and he's never heard of using the rudders like that. Moreover, at our company it's considered sloppy techinique to do that. You get in the sim here and start doing that and you'll hear, "no...no...no..." from the instructor. I personally wouldn't do it....I think it gives a bad ride, but I guess I'll agree that it isn't wrong to use the rudders like that.
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Your company considers it sloppy technique!
You'll hear "no ... no ... no" from the Pan Am instructors because the rudders pedals don't work very well on Frascas! When I was at Pan Am all the instructors told us to place our feet flat on the floor because the rudders in those pieces of junk were way too sensitive! Anyway, why don't you tell me what else "your company" considers sloppy technique!
Fine. I talked to one of our DC-9 pilots and he's never heard of using the rudders like that. Moreover, at our company it's considered sloppy techinique to do that. You get in the sim here and start doing that and you'll hear, "no...no...no..." from the instructor. I personally wouldn't do it....I think it gives a bad ride, but I guess I'll agree that it isn't wrong to use the rudders like that.
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Your company considers it sloppy technique!
