Inside the FAF....

Malko

Malko

ughhh
Staff member
So I am on my IFR long X-C today and it goes o.k. The first leg is smooth as glass, 10 mins into the second leg it gets bumpy for the rest of the flight. The third leg goes the same. We request 7000 and dont get it because of traffic at 6k. We get bumped around for the leg home.

Anyhow, I am having problems once inside the FAF. I get established on the inbound course and the plane is trimmed. Once I hit the FAF I start the timer, and I can't seem to keep it straight. I correct for the localizer,then the alt. moves. I correct for the alt. then the GS gets off.. And on, and on. I cannot seem to get it together at this time. Outside the FAF it's all good, but then.....I am getting flustered, my CFII is getting flustered and looking for something that may be missing. I am going up next with a different CFII to see if there is something that both me and my CFII are missing. Any thoughts or suggestions?
 
You just have to practice approaches over, and over, and over, and over, until you can do them to PTS standards every time. I had about 60 hours of actual/simulated instrument time before I took my checkride. Like the private, you just need to keep practicing until you become proficient. Don't worry about spending a few extra hours for your instrument rating....you need these hours for your commercial anyway.
 
Don't forget that on windy days the direction and velocity of the wind will change as you descend. Try to get a mental picture of the winds aloft and compare them to the winds at ground level, then figure out how that will affect your approach. As the wind direction changes you need to modify your heading to hold the course. As your ground speed changes you'll need to adjust your vertical speed to maintain glideslope. If you can get a rough idea of the changes that you will be confronted with it makes it easier to understand what the gauges are telling you.
 
Don't stare at the localizer and glideslope needles. Stare at the heading indicator and vertical speed. Keep the heading constant and vertical speed on 500 and the ILS needles won't move much. Then, make small corrections to keep the needles centered.
 
Once past the FAF, glideslope becomes primary for pitch and localizer becomes primary for bank. You must however keep your scan checking DG and ALT as secondary (particularly for alt minimum sit.awareness). Don't stare at any of your instruments. Set your heading bug (if you have one) on your wind correction, and once established you should try not to make corrections for heading outside of the bug. Think of very fine intercept angles. If you don't see the trend reversing, increase your intercept angle until you see the change.
It also could be as simple as fatigue rearing it's ugly head. Instument approaches in actual IMC come at the worst time, highest workload at the end of a lot of focus for a long time! You were tired from getting bounced around for much of your flight. It may be that you just need to focus on increasing your scan during times of fatigue.

That's one way of looking at it
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Once past the FAF, glideslope becomes primary for pitch and localizer becomes primary for bank.

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That's a new one on me....I think I'll stick with Don's advice.
 
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Once past the FAF, glideslope becomes primary for pitch and localizer becomes primary for bank.

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That's a new one on me....I think I'll stick with Don's advice.

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Ditto. If you set up the needles as your "primary" instruments you're going to be chasing them all day long. Like 727 said ... find a heading that keeps the LOC centered (or close to it) and a power setting that gives you a stabilized descent and fly the DG, not the LOC needle. As you get closer to the MAP/Landing don't bank to make LOC corrections. Just slide the airplane left or right with the rudders. Banking takes too long for small corrections down near the antenna.

It also helps if you have the aircraft configured for approach before you cross the FAF.
 
Ditto again.

Thinking/using the LOC/GS needles as primary for bank and pitch is only going to get you in trouble.
 
Take your speed and half it...so if your doing 100ktsGS half it, thats 50, add a 0..thats 500Fpm thereabouts for a 3.0º slope. THat once you intercept get to around there and then fine tune. Establish your wind correction angle and try to make small corrections. Things really get sensitve inside the FAF so very very tiny corrections are all that should be required. And of course, practice practice etc.etcetc
 
Another small trick, when on LOC, make corrections only within the width of the "captain's bars" that you select the heading with on the HSI, they may or may not be on a DG. You make a small correction within the width of those, the correctiojn might not take effect immediately, but will happen. Can also be used to "mark" your wind corrected heading you need to maintain in relation to the LOC course. Helps to keep one from overcorrecting.
 
What are the "Captain's bars" exactly? One trick that works also is to keep the localizer corrections no greater than the heading bug.
 
i definitely have have found great success with employing the concept of "reference heading" and "reference descent rate". You use the FLIGHT instruments to fly the reference heading/descent rate that keeps the needles centered.

The loc and glide slope needles are nothing more than a 'report card' on how your doing.

I was trained with the control/performance method, ala that Peter Dogan book as a great source. Never had a problem inside the FAF, neither do my students.
 
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What are the "Captain's bars" exactly? One trick that works also is to keep the localizer corrections no greater than the heading bug.

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Same-same. Different terminology.
 
What is the pitch you need to flying on the attitude indicator in your landing configuration at your approach speed? If you don't know then get another instructor...this is the one thing that IR instructors ALWAYS miss. To fly the glideslope you need to set a target pitch...join the gs on speed and pitch to your target. Then check you VSI...if it doesn't indicate the descent rate you want then make 1/2 bar corrections on the AI. Now if you are above or below the GS do the same thing, 1/2 bar correction to increase or decrease you rate of descent. Everytime you make a correction you should be looking at the AI. DO NOT DO NOT make a correction while looking at the needles (assuming you have a CDI) you will overcorrect everytime. One thing that might help you is going up and climbing high, then make a 500fpm descent in landing configuration. Once your good at that then vary your fpm in hundreds and your heading by 2-3 degrees. Only once you have that good of aircraft control should you see an acutal glideslope.

When I was teaching I would have to do these progress checks with other instructors students. I would watch them do a crappy job, then tell them the above in the downwind, then they would try again. Almost everytime I would see a 100% improvement!

Some above said something about using the rudders...yeah this might work but it gives a sloppy ride and won't work in real airplanes...(yaw damper). Hopfully soon your going to be in an airplane that you fly with your feet on the floor, so don't get into bad habits now.
 
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Some above said something about using the rudders...yeah this might work but it gives a sloppy ride and won't work in real airplanes...(yaw damper). Hopfully soon your going to be in an airplane that you fly with your feet on the floor, so don't get into bad habits now.



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That tip (using rudders when close to the DH) came from a 24,600-hour pilot who has flown "real" aircraft. He's typed in DC-3's and DC-9s, owned his own airfield and is commercially rated in helicopters as well. So take it for what it's worth.

Not to mention the fact that "training" people to fly "big" airplanes in "small" airplanes is hog-wash. I firmly believe in training people (and in flying personally) to fly the aircraft they are flying. Flying a 172 is completely different than flying an Apache and flying an Apache is completely different than flying a 777. Train to fly the equipment you fly.

This means that the way you fly is going to change with the type of equipment you fly. The only "bad habit" is not realizing this and not changing your flying style when you change equipment. IMHO.
 
Doesn't matter who it came from. The fact of the matter is, walking on the rudders to fly the localizer is going to make the people in the back queazy. It may not bother you up front because you won't be moving much, but the guy in the last seat is going to be green.

But I agree with you about flying the airplane you're flying...and not changing technique because of something you'll fly in the future. Its just something to think about. It does apply to small airplanes too. The V-tail Bonanza yaws a lot in turbulence with the yaw damper off (like on final) and its much more pronounced in the back than it is in the front.
 
For the glideslope, I pitch for a 500fpm descent rate. If I get a little off the slope, then I pitch up or down to get back. If it's more than a dot deflection, I use power to regain the slope.

For the localizer, fly heading. Let's say the localizer heading is 360 and you have a crosswind from the right. If you fly 360, then you will drift left. So turn right 5 degrees to 005 and see what happens. If you keep drifting left, try turning another 5 degrees. Now heading 010, you regain the glideslope. You now know that to track the localizer requires a heading between 005 and 010. If you fly through the localizer, let the wind drift you back.

Of course the wind will change on the way down, but the general principle remains the same.

Use the rudders for changes of 1 or 2 degrees, otherwise use bank.

Those are my tips, for what they are worth.
 
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That tip (using rudders when close to the DH) came from a 24,600-hour pilot who has flown "real" aircraft. He's typed in DC-3's and DC-9s, owned his own airfield and is commercially rated in helicopters as well. So take it for what it's worth.

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First off, I didn't know that light airplanes were not "real" airplanes...let me go subtract a bunch of time out of my log book. Anyways, I still contend that using the rudders like that sloppy. You can get away with that because a light airplane is so short. Start doing that in anything slightly bigger, say a C-210 or Carvan, and the passengers in the back will be using their sick sacs...me included. There is no way that one would use the rudders like that in the DC-9. Lastly, lets no forget the law of primacy, the first way you learn something is always the hardest to unlearn. CFIs should teach the proper technique, not shortcuts.

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Not to mention the fact that "training" people to fly "big" airplanes in "small" airplanes is hog-wash. I firmly believe in training people (and in flying personally) to fly the aircraft they are flying. Flying a 172 is completely different than flying an Apache and flying an Apache is completely different than flying a 777. Train to fly the equipment you fly.

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Yeah, it is hogwash, and the reason why is that there real isn't that much different. The first thing you'll find out when you fly a jet is that they are just like any other airplane...only things happen faster. The actual hand-flying is pretty much the same...push forward to go down and pull back to go up. Want to shoot an approach? Same as a C-172, except easier because the airplane is more stable, and 2-3x the speed mitigates the effects of crosswinds.
 
Reeeelllllaxxx....I dont thing that tone really helps anyone. Besides when your doing it in a DC9 you're not going to be doing it at all, you're going to watch ole George.
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First off, I didn't know that light airplanes were not "real" airplanes...let me go subtract a bunch of time out of my log book.

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Then why did you say this?

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yeah this might work but it gives a sloppy ride and won't work in real airplanes...(yaw damper)

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There is no way that one would use the rudders like that in the DC-9. Lastly, lets no forget the law of primacy, the first way you learn something is always the hardest to unlearn. CFIs should teach the proper technique, not shortcuts.

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Maybe I didn't make myself clear here, I'm not talking about one-dot corrections here. I'm talking about fine tuning the LOC. BIG difference. Plus if you're on an ILS, in real conditions, chances are it's going to be bumpy anyway and I'll give you two dollars for every pax that can tell the difference between "pilot turbulence" and the real thing.

But I do agree about being too agressive with it that it will make pax uncomfortable but, again, I'm not talking about huge corrections. For big corrections you use bank.

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There is no way that one would use the rudders like that in the DC-9.

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Tell him that.

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Yeah, it is hogwash, and the reason why is that there real isn't that much different. The first thing you'll find out when you fly a jet is that they are just like any other airplane...only things happen faster.

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Sounds a lot like the junk they spew over at Westwind and Pan Am. Every airplane flies it's own way and as such each airplane must be flown differently. You think a DC-3 is going to handle the same as a DC-9? Hell, A DC-9-10 lands COMPLETELY differently than the -30's and -40s. If you get in a 172 and then flare it like a 777 you're gonna be making 172 pancakes with a squishy, human-filled center.
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