Incentives for students....

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You don't need gimmicks, just provide excellent product.

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Is a department store doing bad business by having a sale on good products to draw customers?
 
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You don't need gimmicks, just provide excellent product.

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Is a department store doing bad business by having a sale on good products to draw customers?

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Department Store: Retail

Flight Instruction: Service

Not a good comparison.
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Im on my way to the CFI and maybe CFII, about 2 weeks and I will have it
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The Only thing is im still 18, Do you guys think thats going to hurt me? Maybe the student will think I cant fly or something. I dunno.

Not to jack the thread or anything
 
Okay, here's one for ya. Does an oil change place do bad business if they offer a free car wash with an oil change? Technically, that's service not retail.


End result is the same, we're all going to agree to disagree on this one, have a beer and hopefully wind up where we want to be in 10 years.
 
The cost of the car wash is already calculated into the oil change price, plus, the quality of the car wash you get with those deals is usually pretty low, not to mention the fact that the oil change dealer will try to pressure the customers in to purchasing other over priced items while they are there, and frequently suceed, making up the cost of a quick car wash by a minimum wage employee. Gives me a new idea though, I'll start offering free car washes with every hour of dual given you purchase. Buy a Flight Review, and I'll cut your grass next week too!
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Let me ask you this, do you honestly think most people have much respect for the guys down at the Jiffy Lube, or for the door greeter at Wallyworld??? In a situation like flight instruction, your student must have a certain amount of respect for you if you are going to be able to effectively exercise some control over their training until they are making good decisions on their own. When I go for any additional training these days, I look for expertise and quality, cost is not a factor, as I expect, and am willing to pay for it. Perceived value is very important. Sure I shop at Wallyworld to save money and take advantage of the sales, but I know I'm not getting quality products. Would you go to the cardiologist that has to offer a free angioplasty with every stress test to keep his practice busy? When selecting a flight instructor for your spouse or child, would you pick the cheapest one, or would you pay a little more for an instructor if you knew that instructor was good? I don't personally believe that most people look at flight instruction quite the same way as they do a Big Mac or an oil change.

If you don't value your time, no one else will either. For what it is worth, your perspective will most likely change as you get more hours under your belt and feel less pressure to fill the old logbook.
 
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You don't need gimmicks, just provide excellent product.

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Is a department store doing bad business by having a sale on good products to draw customers?

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These are not the same business models. No marketing expert would advertise a flight school the same way they advertise a sale a Penneys. Do you really think that most people look at obtaining flight instruction the same way they do a pair of jeans?

When most people consider spending $5000 to $6000 to get a new certificate or rating, a free hour or two of ground isn't a deciding factor.

If you choose to offer half price Flight Reviews that is your business. If you provide outstanding instruction during that half price flight review then the student is getting a great deal. If I own the other flight school on the field and I start losing business to you, I'll be forced to cut my prices too. If I provide the same quality for the price, then we are back to square one. Then what? Cut further? I've seen situations where both flight schools went out of business this way, rather than co-existing and prospering.

The more succesful flight academys, with a few notable exceptions, are generally not the cheapest. They market themselves much differently than the Dollar Store.
 
End result is the same, we're all going to agree to disagree on this one, have a beer and hopefully wind up where we want to be in 10 years.

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Already there - I've been a very succesful, self employed business man for 17 years since getting out of the Marine Corps in 1988. I'm semi retired at 40. I own and operate three airplanes, fly all I want, and actually make decent money doing it. So I know a little bit about what I'm saying.
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End result is the same, we're all going to agree to disagree on this one, have a beer and hopefully wind up where we want to be in 10 years.

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Already there - I've been a very succesful, self employed business man for 17 years since getting out of the Marine Corps in 1988. I'm semi retired at 40. I own and operate three airplanes, fly all I want, and actually make decent money doing it. So I know a little bit about what I'm saying.
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Well, not all of us are 19, just out of school and on our first job.

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Greg, not busting your chops or anything, but does anyone remember this:

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This is not an ad, just a sincere good will offer to any and all Jetcareerers in my neck of the woods. If you would like to add a tailwheel endorsement to your ticket, and you happen to be in the central Georgia area, I'd be happy to do it for you for the cost of fuel (about $125 to $150).

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I know you posted this up because you were enjoying flying the Champ at the time, but shouldn't we also be paying you for the instruction?
 
Ouch!!! You got me Kellwolf! I'll take my offer back! I guess you figured me out - I'm just trying to be a royal jerk and encourage other instructors to charge more so I can steal their students with my low low prices.

I can assure you that my offer was not made to increase my business, improve my pass rate, bring in income, or to generate return customers. And I would be the first to admit that the offer would be INCREDIBLY bad business if it was intended to do any of the above!

You may find it interesting that I've only had one person take me up on the offer of $125 to $150 for 6 hours of flight and an endorsement. Which is about all I expected.

I stand by my position and opinion. Dedicated professional Flight Instructors deserve every penny they earn.
 
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You may find it interesting that I've only had one person take me up on the offer of $125 to $150 for 6 hours of flight and an endorsement.

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And don't forget one ground loop !
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I can assure you that my offer was not made to increase my business . . .And I would be the first to admit that the offer would be INCREDIBLY bad business if it was intended to do any of the above!

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so, offering a deal to bring in more business is INCREDIBLY bad business?

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What if it actually DOES bring in more business, increasing your income? Does this constitute bad business?

If you bring in more business, but don't lower the quality of your instruction, is this bad business?
 
I give up Lloyd. I really do. I have been, and always will be, an advocate of good pay for flight instructors. As long as flight instructors, and pilots in general, are willing to fly for free, or for very reduced pay, that is what they will get.

As for my offer being INCREDIBLY bad business, and YES, I was only referring to MY offer in the above post, yes it would be. My cost of operating the Champ, including fuel, oil, engine rebuild allowance, maintenance, and fixed expenses is about $40 per hour. My offer costs me about about $100 for the day, not including any income lost by not flying aerial survey that day, or with a customer buying an airplane. If the airplane gets trashed, which is always a very real possibility in a tailwheel, I'm really out money. Assuming I was actually trying to run the Champ as a profitable business, it wouldn't take long to go bankrupt. The only reason I provide tailwheel training at all is because I find it keeps my stick and rudder skills up, and I like to provide people with the chance to fly a vintage aircraft. It is a HOBBY, not a business, ask the IRS about the difference.

Today is going to be another beautiful blue sky day in Georgia. I will spend about 10 hours at 9500' msl photographing Macon and Webster Counties in my 182. My business has to film the entire state, twice, by October. The day's work will bring in close to $1000. If I don't fly, I have to pay one of my pilots $250 to do it. Would it be smart to spend six hours to do a $125 tailwheel endorsement today for someone from Jet Careers? Would that be good business? If the Champ was my actual business from which I had to make a living, I can assure you I would charge a lot more!

I sincerely apologize for offending anyone with my posts, it was not my intention. I usually regret posting in these forums but for some stupid reason I keep doing it. It's probably the daily oxygen deprivation.

Sun is coming up, gotta go take pictures!
 
Keep posting Greg.
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Your posts make sense and you tend to provide valuable information.

As for the current conversation, I have to agree with you - students shouldn't need monitary motivation to pass. I help all of my students set goals and create their own personal incentives. I've found if the motivation is not internal for the student, it's fairly worthless.

And, your offer is one of the reasons I like the general aviaiton community - lots of pilots are willing to share their time and information just to help someone else be a better pilot. I think many instructors get too wrapped up in the quest to build hours.

Regards folks!
 
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I give up Lloyd. I really do. I have been, and always will be, an advocate of good pay for flight instructors. As long as flight instructors, and pilots in general, are willing to fly for free, or for very reduced pay, that is what they will get.

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Nobody is saying that flight instructors shouldn't be paid well. I'm a very well paid flight instructor. I encourage flight instructors to go out and find a good-paying job.

I'm not, at all, saying that we should get very reduced pay! What I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with a flight instructor offering a deal to a student. An incentive for doing well? I don't think that's exactly lowering the standard of living for flight instructors. I'm not advocating that ANYONE work for free!!

Let's be real here. If I told all of my students that I would give them 30 minutes of ground for free during a BFR or an IPC - as a Christmas gift - as long as it was redeemed during the month of January, I bet you that I would make MORE money than I would had I not offered such a deal. We'll just call this a...uhhh...hypothetical statement.
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Am I forcing any of the other instructors on the field to charge any less or any more? No, not at all. Charge what you like.

Greg, your posts here on JC are wonderful! We're glad that you're on here with us!! We like having successful business owners and pilots that can share their wisdom with us. So, keep the oxygen deprived so that you can come back!! I refuse, however, to accept the idea that anyone in the service industry that offers any sale or deal is practicing bad business. I can't accept that.
 
Maybe you would make more money with that, but I wouldn't for two main reasons.

1) My students will need a BFR when they need one regardless of what deals are offered.

2) My students will come to me to do it when they need one without me offering a deal.

Because of that, I would lose money by offering a deal.

For sake of calculating purposes, say my normal instruction rate is $40/hr. Say I have 5 students take me up on the 30 free minutes deal. That's 20*5=100 dollars that I just paid my students out of my pocket. That $100 could have bought me food for a couple weeks or more.
 
On the other hand, most schools offer 'discovery flights' at $49.99 each. What Lloyd is pointing out is that offering coupons and deals may result in more training from that individual or a recommendation that leads to a new student. If you are known to go above and beyond, you're going to generate more business and make more profit.
 
I'm known to go above and beyond without compromising my pay. It's not like I'm the only one that can do that, it just takes work and most people like to take the easy way out.

Also, at the FBO I used to work at, us instructors arranged a deal where half of the $49 charged for the intro flight was given to the instructor. Since the intro flight lasted about 30 minutes, that was actually more than we made for standard instruction. Granted we were fortunate enough to have an owner that had morals and appreciated us, but if we didn't put in the effort to be the best, then we wouldn't have gotten that.

In the end, we gained VERY little business from the intro flights. Some of our business was built in through a flying club, and nearly all of the rest from word of mouth that we were the best, not because we gave away money.
 
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