In-flight electrical failure

Bandit_Driver said:
I am going to through this out there as I was taught to my by a few instructors and I gave it to my students and fuel for thought when playing the what if game while chair flying.


You are in a PA-28 flying from KHAI to KBEH. When about 20nm from KBEH at 4000 MSL you lose everthing but your pitot static instruments. The weather at KBEH 271553Z AUTO 00000KT 1 1/2SM BR 08/07 A2978 RMK AO2 SLP198 T00830067. You do not have sufficient fuel to fly to VFR conditions. What do you do after you troubleshoot the aircraft and get nothing back?
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Descend until you get ground contact then scud run in. 1 1/2 isn't too bad, I've flown around quite a bit in 1SM CoC and as uncomfortable as it is, your homemade contact approach is probably better than nothing. Better hope you're proficient in that sort of thing and know the terrain damn well though. Cuz otherwise you'll probably impact some sort of ground structure, or terrain.
 
ppragman said:
... your homemade contact approach is probably better than nothing. Better hope you're proficient in that sort of thing and know the terrain damn well though.
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I didn't say this earlier but to me that is what it comes down to.
(war stories withheld)

Situational awareness includes terrain.

A friend's dad used to depart 0/0 to get above the layer. To land he would head west over the ocean, make a 180 and a soft let down of 100-200 fpm. He knew his ranch land very well and knew how much time (distance) he had after crossing the shoreline. In his T-craft or J3, he could hear the surf which he used sorta like the OM.




 
ppragman said:
Descend until you get ground contact then scud run in.
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Is that assuming that you have a vacuum powered gyro? Otherwise, what attitude source do you use to keep yourself wings level through the IMC descent?

Do the FAA publications not have the same electrical out pattern than the US military has in the DoD Flight Information Handbook? There's an "electrical out above the weather" pattern that military aircraft are instructed to fly. It's is a big triangle...and the assumption in flying that triangle is that someone with a radar will see that triangle, realize the situation you're in, and dispatch an aircraft to come join up on you in formation, then lead you down through the weather to VMC or a landing.
 
ppragman said:
Sometimes that just doesn't work in hill country. If you're launching with a full load of freight in a machine with one motor on a mins day at both airports, and at alternate mins at your alternate, you don't really have that much in the way of options if you lose "everything." I need to get my handheld down here, that's your only real backup if you lose everything.
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True, and especially on departure this could really box you into a bad corner.
 
Hacker15e said:
Do the FAA publications not have the same electrical out pattern than the US military has in the DoD Flight Information Handbook? There's an "electrical out above the weather" pattern that military aircraft are instructed to fly. It's is a big triangle...and the assumption in flying that triangle is that someone with a radar will see that triangle, realize the situation you're in, and dispatch an aircraft to come join up on you in formation, then lead you down through the weather to VMC or a landing.
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First I've heard of this. Is there a pub with said info in it? Probably would be a good thing for myself and my friends to know :D
 
I've heard of what Hacker is talking about, I learned it in Canada. I think it's 60 seconds legs or so. I'm to lazy to find it, but perhaps ICAO could help you out.
 
Hacker15e said:
Is that assuming that you have a vacuum powered gyro? Otherwise, what attitude source do you use to keep yourself wings level through the IMC descent?

Do the FAA publications not have the same electrical out pattern than the US military has in the DoD Flight Information Handbook? There's an "electrical out above the weather" pattern that military aircraft are instructed to fly. It's is a big triangle...and the assumption in flying that triangle is that someone with a radar will see that triangle, realize the situation you're in, and dispatch an aircraft to come join up on you in formation, then lead you down through the weather to VMC or a landing.
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For attitude you use a combination of airspeed altitude and your whiskey compass.
 
RICHARD5 said:
Elaborate please.
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Airspeed increasing, alt decreasing, you are pitched down (or at least descending). Airspeed decreasing, altitude increasing, and the opposite.....this is provided you are using the proper power settings for level flight. Wet compass will tell you if you are banked/turning. Not a precise means of attitude indication, but it can help you maintain relatively straight and level flight.
 
I have a fully charged handheld backup on every flight, no exceptions. It's too easy to just throw it into the flight bag and save yourself a ton of trouble if something like this.
 
///AMG said:
First I've heard of this. Is there a pub with said info in it? Probably would be a good thing for myself and my friends to know :D
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Yes, it's called the Flight Information Handbook. Don't you carry that in your publications kit on every sortie?
 
ppragman said:
For attitude you use a combination of airspeed altitude and your whiskey compass.
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The compass for attitude information??

Really?

Why not just use a glass of water -- it's just as inaccurate as the compass is.

If it can give false readings because of in-flight acceleration (oh, say, like when you're turning) then it's worthless as an attitude source.
 
I'm only speculating that if the time comes when the stuff hits the fan, a wet compass is a great tool.

I wouldn't base a checkride on the interpretation.
 
Hacker15e said:
The compass for attitude information??

Really?

Why not just use a glass of water -- it's just as inaccurate as the compass is.

If it can give false readings because of in-flight acceleration (oh, say, like when you're turning) then it's worthless as an attitude source.
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It will tell you if you're turning. That's about it. Which when combined with Airspeed and Altitude would be enough. I've flown timed turns with nothing but airspeed, altitude, and compass information before during my training. You can hold the wings level and maintain a course.
 
At my home airport in Nebraska, I know the LPV DA to one runway by the smell of cow poo below. Does that count for knowing the terrain? :D
 
Hacker15e said:
Yes, it's called the Flight Information Handbook. Don't you carry that in your publications kit on every sortie?
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I do indeed, just hadn't perused it thoroughly enough to find this portion. Probably an unlikely scenario for my current a/c (maybe why it has never been briefed in any flight I've flown), but I will certainly take a look
 
Two things.

I once dealt with a King Air going into what I guess you could call essential power mode (that doesn't really exist, but suffice it to say we lost a whole lot of crap). All AC power was gone (HSI, altimeter and AI on the skippers side died), we lost the boots, cabin, blah blah blah in ice and IMC at around FL180 at midnight. Skipper flew a partial panel VOR approach into Oakland to a few hundred above minimums with me calling his altitudes. I had a full set of instruments (vacuum) on my side, but to say his scan was disorienting is an understatement. The captain was one of the best guys at the company to have this happen with, what with his 6,000 hours of time in 1900's, but it was a real rough night. I wouldn't wish a situation like that on anybody.

Second, I'll disagree with all of ya'll on the handheld issue. I think you guys are all saying you bring handheld transceivers with you, to which I would disagree with doing for the most part.

I was always worried about this situation happening, so I always had a handheld GPS with me in GA airplanes. The thing was just as accurate as a VOR, and in a pinch could easily be used to shoot a poor mans VOR or, if necessary, ILS approach. I would MUCH rather know where I am, and know how to get to where I need to be in order to land safely, than to tell a controller I'm in deep.

In a transport category aircraft, I'm not too worried about this.
 
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