ILS question

RPJ

RPJ

Well-Known Member
If an ILS approach has a LOM, which is also the IAF, and in the notes section it stipulates an ADF is required, what would happen if the NDB is permanently out of service? This would render the whole ILS approach useless and would no longer be a valid approach correct?
 
There is a NOTAM stating that the LOM is INOP. There is no other means to ID the LOM other than a GPS database. Which brings me to my next question, I know this has been discussed before but is it only acceptable to use a panel mounted GPS to navigate towards a fix in IFR? Would a hand held, with the fix in the database, be acceptable to use?

Thanks
Ryan
 
No, the GPS would have to be a unit that is specifically approved for IFR.

Most handhelds (all of them that I'm aware of. . .) are not IFR certified.
 
sounds like the approach is in a non-radar environment, otherwise it would stipulate adf or radar required. what is the name of the approach? it it says "ils or loc rwy xx" then the adf if probably required for a procedure turn and to identify the faf for the localizer-only approach. there should be an fdc notam on the operational status of the approach as well. where is it and what approach?
 
correct. no way to identify iaf, faf, etc. or do the published missed, plus the 'adf required' pretty much says it all. there are no reported notams at this time for lom and/or the approach being ots.
 
exleardriver said:
correct. no way to identify iaf, faf, etc. or do the published missed, plus the 'adf required' pretty much says it all. there are no reported notams at this time for lom and/or the approach being ots.
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Thats the thing about this, I tried to shoot this approach two times the past 48 hours and each time Wichita approach informs me that the LOM, CA NDB is OTS. There are no FDC or local notams for it. Just seems odd that the whole ILS approach is rendered useless because of a cheap NDB OTS.
 
RPJ said:
Thats the thing about this, I tried to shoot this approach two times the past 48 hours and each time Wichita approach informs me that the LOM, CA NDB is OTS. There are no FDC or local notams for it. Just seems odd that the whole ILS approach is rendered useless because of a cheap NDB OTS.
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So it's LIFR and you try the approach. Non-radar environment. You have to go missed. So you?

(a) make something up that has not been checked with TERPS criteria
(b) ....?

Doesn't seem odd to me at all.

BTW, it's not rendered totally useless. If you have an IFR GPS...
 
RPJ said:
Thats the thing about this, I tried to shoot this approach two times the past 48 hours and each time Wichita approach informs me that the LOM, CA NDB is OTS. There are no FDC or local notams for it. Just seems odd that the whole ILS approach is rendered useless because of a cheap NDB OTS.
Click to expand...

when was the last time that you flew this approach?
 
RPJ said:
If an ILS approach has a LOM, which is also the IAF, and in the notes section it stipulates an ADF is required, what would happen if the NDB is permanently out of service? This would render the whole ILS approach useless and would no longer be a valid approach correct?
Click to expand...

Yes. Unless you have an IFR certified GPS.
 
Blackhawk said:
Yes. Unless you have an IFR certified GPS.
Click to expand...

correct. for complete details, read aim 1-1-19 f. 'use of gps in lieu of adf and dme'. it has information concerning operations allowed, restrictions, guidance, planning..etc. begins on page 515 in the '07 asa far/aim.
 
The last time I flew the approach (in VFR conditions) was 12/14/07. I understand that without the NDB one can't shoot the approach unless they have an IFR certified GPS.

What I meant when I stated "I thought it was odd" was that the ILS system was relatively expensive to implement and maintain and a NDB is what put it OTS to /U or /A pilots, but thats aviation. At least this airport has a VOR approach which I will use.

Thanks for all replies, JC is an invaluable resource!

-Ryan
 
ryan (my own name, actually) :)...the ndb was in service then when you flew the approach on the 14th? atc says it's ots, but there's still no notam concerning it being ots? i was about to suggest having fss check class II notams, but if it was working on the 14th..

at any rate, i phoned flight service in kansas and they show no notams whatsoever in their database for ewk, except that the papi for rw 26 is ots. i asked the lockheed briefer if it's possible that local atc is aware of the issue, but that the report simply hasn't reached flight service yet, but the briefer said 'no sir, we would know'. obviously, in this case, they don't..lol.
 
RPJ said:
What I meant when I stated "I thought it was odd" was that the ILS system was relatively expensive to implement and maintain and a NDB is what put it OTS to /U or /A pilots, but thats aviation.
Click to expand...
No matter how expensive and sophisticated, an overall system is only the sum of its parts. Remove even a cheap component and the system doesn't work.

It's not just aviation. Take your desktop computer. Snip off the end of the plug, worth about 50¢, and see how well it works.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
No matter how expensive and sophisticated, an overall system is only the sum of its parts. Remove even a cheap component and the system doesn't work.

It's not just aviation. Take your desktop computer. Snip off the end of the plug, worth about 50¢, and see how well it works.
Click to expand...
LOL true!
 
exleardriver said:
correct. no way to identify iaf, faf, etc. or do the published missed, plus the 'adf required' pretty much says it all. there are no reported notams at this time for lom and/or the approach being ots.
Click to expand...

I am a little confused also concerning this statement. I agree that you need the ADF to identify the LOM if it is the IAF, but I don't agree with the statement that it is needed to identify the FAF. If flying an actual ILS, the FAF is identified by the GS intercept, nothing else. If I am wrong, please let me know. THe ADF is needed if flying a LOC approach to identify all components.
 
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