ILS Glide Slop Intercept Altitudes ??

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
When looking at a Jepp chart and taking a look at the profile view, we would maintain the altitude on the profile view until glide slope intercept once "maintain X thousand until established" not the GS altitude shown in the briefing stip, correct??

(Settling a dispute amongst instructors :insane: )
 
meritflyer said:
When looking at a Jepp chart and taking a look at the profile view, we would maintain the altitude on the profile view until glide slope intercept once "maintain X thousand until established" not the GS altitude shown in the briefing stip, correct??

(Settling a dispute amongst instructors :insane: )

Edit
Reread what your wrote, I get it now.

The altitude on the briefing strip is the altitude where the GS and the localizer intersect at a known point (DME fix, cross radial, radar fix, LOM, etc). So you are correct, you would maintain the profile view altitude, no the glide slope intercept altitude, GSIA.
 
meritflyer said:
When looking at a Jepp chart and taking a look at the profile view, we would maintain the altitude on the profile view until glide slope intercept once "maintain X thousand until established" not the GS altitude shown in the briefing stip, correct??

(Settling a dispute amongst instructors :insane: )
You saying if ATC tell you to maintain X until establsihed?
 
Yeah, he's talking about KPIT as in the airport. There is some goofy stuff they do as far as getting you on down the approaches.
 
BobDDuck said:
Yeah, he's talking about KPIT as in the airport. There is some goofy stuff they do as far as getting you on down the approaches.

apparently, only in pit do they EXPECT and WANT you do the step downs to the final intercept altitude. Everywhere else you just fly to join up...

after being scolded several times by the local controllers I just gave up and do it.

weird
 
wheelsup said:
apparently, only in pit do they EXPECT and WANT you do the step downs to the final intercept altitude. Everywhere else you just fly to join up...

after being scolded several times by the local controllers I just gave up and do it.

weird
Ahh the joys of flying. Them grey areas are always fun.
 
Dugie8 said:
Edit
Reread what your wrote, I get it now.

The altitude on the briefing strip is the altitude where the GS and the localizer intersect at a known point (DME fix, cross radial, radar fix, LOM, etc). So you are correct, you would maintain the profile view altitude, no the glide slope intercept altitude, GSIA.

Knew it!! That Ba$tard! Score Merit 1 other CFI 0! :nana2:
 
meritflyer said:
Knew it!! That Ba$tard! Score Merit 1 other CFI 0! :nana2:

Now don't go quoting me to everyone, I could very well be wrong too, and plus sometimes the profile atltitude and the GSIA are the same, every now and then the planets align and beer flows like a river.
 
wheelsup said:
apparently, only in pit do they EXPECT and WANT you do the step downs to the final intercept altitude. Everywhere else you just fly to join up...

after being scolded several times by the local controllers I just gave up and do it.

weird


You can fly the glideslope to the beginning of the Final Approach Segment for an ILS approach. But you are responsible for maintaining at or above all stepdown fixes until you reach the 'top of the feather'. Just because you are on the glideslope, doesn't necessarily mean you will remain above the stepdown fixes. IE...KLAX 25L. It sounds to me that the controllers at KPIT are enforcing the approach properly.
 
Looking at the LAX ILS 25L NACO approach plate I dont see what you mean. Granted I don't know NACO nearly as well as Jepp , after you intercept the GS it looks like you still just follow it all the way down, correct?

Maybe I'm missing something. Im just curious as it would be good to know for future reference if I am missing something.:insane:

LAX ILS 25L:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0607/00237IL25L.PDF
 
I agree with S40 on this one. If you stay on the GS for the ILS 25L you make all the stepdown fixes.

I had to prove that to my captain one night - he was so worried about busting the stepdowns. I set up the FMS both ways and showed him that the GS took you over all the stepdowns.

The altitudes are listed on the plate in case the GS goes out.
 
The particular approach that you mentioned (S40_flyer) above is odd for two reasons, and one of them is the reason that you don't understand the question (because on this approach the question is not applicable).

Anyways, here is why the ILS 25L at LAX is odd.

1. You see the # sign next to the 3200 at or above restriction in the profile view? The note tells you that you can proceed all the way down to 1900 when authorized by ATC. Most approaches just have you down to the final approach fix altitude before glide slope intercept, but this approach is odd, because depending on what ATC tells you, your final approach fix altitude seems to be either 1900 or 3200, depending on what they say. So if they tell you that you are cleared to 1900 following HUNDA, you could pretend that the 3200 foot restriction isn't there, and intercept glideslope at 1900. Otherwise, you have to only descend to 3200, and intercept glideslope at 3200.

2. You see at LIMMA there is a 1900 at or above restriction? This is normal at the final approach fix (which is what the big black "X" is telling you). Above that "X" 1900 is printed again in smaller type, and that 1900 is your glideslope intercept altitude. What that is telling you is that at LIMMA, when you are on glideslope you should be at exactly 1900'. This is odd because on many approaches they are off by a couple of feet. As an example check out the ILS 13C at CBM here: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0607/00091I31C.PDF which demonstrates the point. The Final approach fix is at LESSE and is a 2000' at or above restriction, but the glideslope intercept altitude is 1913. So they are off by 77'. If you were flying this as an ILS, you would descend to 2000' after SNAEK, (or you would be vectored to final at 2000'), and then upon intercepting the glideslope you would start down. If you had DME, you could cross check that at 5.8 DME you would be at exactly 1913' if you were on glideslope. If you were flying this as a localizer, however, you would stay at 2000' until 5.8 DME, and then start your descent, so you would be descending slightly later, and remaining slightly higher at LESSE. But only by 77'.

Anyway, the question (if I'm understanding it properly) dealt with cases where the glideslope intercept altitude and the final approach fix altitude are different. The answer is, you only descend to the final approach fix altitude and no lower, until you intercept the glide slope, and then you follow the glideslope. The glideslope intercept altitude is there for you to ensure that you are intercepting the glideslope at the proper point to verify all the equipment is working properly. It is also there because the glideslope antenna puts out incorrect or phantom glideslope signals that you can hit if you are well past the normal glideslope intercept point, and they don't want you to follow those down unintentionally.
 
Maybe I misunderstood the question then. If the question is about step down altitude restrictions INSIDE the final approach fix, then you shouldn't need to worry about them if you are on glideslope. If you are flying the approach as an ILS (on glideslope) then the glideslope will keep you above all of the restrictions. It's only if you are flying the approaches as a LOC, (or in other words, ignoring the glideslope or not using it for some reason... maybe because it is out of service) that you would have to ensure that you didn't fly below the step down restrictions.
 
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