Illegal 135 charter being legal?

C

Chris_Ford

Well-Known Member
A question we were talking about at work today:
What is stopping a flight school from, when approached with a request to "fly me to Atlanta [or whereever]", giving the guy a logbook, and have him do "flight training" with a flight school CFI and log the flight in the logbook (included in the cost) and call it "mission-based training"...

I realize the ethical obligations, but surely there are those who have no such ethics, and even those with the ethical obligations, if they taught the passenger to taxi/straight and level, would that constitute "enough"?

Just curious as to whether there are any sort of regulations on this, because I haven't the foggiest what to look for in the FARs....

And no need for the "don't do it because it's ethically wrong"... Yes, I know, this is a hypothetical question.
 
If it works for you then it works for you.

The question you have to ask is if it comes to attention of the FAA what are the chances it's going to work for them?

The chances are not much - but it goes on all the time, BECAUSE, if it doesn't come to the attention of the FAA who's going to care?
 
Better hope you don't get caught. People HAVE been violated for this. In fact, if you get a call from someone asking you to do this, hang up! The FAA used to call the first FBO I worked for and bring up this "idea" to see if we would bite (at least I suspect it was the FAA, I could never prove it).

The owner of that flight school would try to pull this (hence the reason I believe it was the FAA calling). He managed a couple of airplanes that were on a charter certificate with another company, but if he could get one of us to make it an "instructional" flight, he would make more money off it. I took pleasure in telling him to shove it.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Don't do it!
 
I like playing devil's advocatte a lot, so bear with me on the other side to the replies to your post. While I don't know entirely if this can be done, let me take a stab at it.

I think that that scenerio would be entirely possible for a commercial pilot due to the definition of private carriage or non-common carriage. As a commercial pilot you are entitled to apply for a commercial operator certificate that is neither part 135 or 121, it's part 91. having that, if you aren't holding out then you're still perfectly legal.

in your scenerio you use a school as the frontman, which I think would violate a few FAR's, but if the person had instead just asked one of the commercial pilots or CFI's then, again I think it would be legal.

anyone have any additional thoughts?
 
I agree with you, ESF, but I'm just wondering what legal recourse they have... have zero interest in actually doing it (Pax have a tendency to complain a lot
smile.gif
)
 
[ QUOTE ]
have zero interest in actually doing it (Pax have a tendency to complain a lot
smile.gif
)

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I see a freight job in your future?

Come to the dark side!
laugh.gif
 
My old boss at the "flight school" where I worked tried doing this with me. The guy "wanted to get his multi-engine rating". Yeah right. My boss was only kissing is @$$ because he had a Cirrus and was worth about $200 million (or was thought to). When I tell my boss I don't want any part of it, he tells me "Jason, we're in a service based business, blah, blah, blah..." • that...I'm not losing my certificate for your POS business. Afterall, the FAA would come to our school and fly our planes for their own currency...so...they were there ALL THE TIME, and yet the school would constantly do stupid things like that. I better stop the rant now...I could go on for days....
banghead.gif
banghead.gif
 
There is a legal way to make it happen.

Basically the guy could come in ask to rent a plane. The FBO says sure and asks to see the his qualifications. The guy actually is like no, I'd like to hire a commercial pilot for his/her services to take me where I want to go.

The FBO then can't assign a pilot, they would have to give the customer a list to choose from and have the customer pick who he wants to fly for him(or he could bring someone else he found off the street).

This example would work.
 
[ QUOTE ]
There is a legal way to make it happen.

Basically the guy could come in ask to rent a plane. The FBO says sure and asks to see the his qualifications. The guy actually is like no, I'd like to hire a commercial pilot for his/her services to take me where I want to go.

This example would work.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure?
confused.gif


The only way that could work would be if the FBO leased an airplane to this guy, and the guy hired his own pilot who could not be affiliated with the FBO who leased the plane to him.

The guy would have to approach the FBO about leasing an airplane, NOT hiring a pilot.
 
from what I've heard and understand the pilot to be hired and the aircraft cannot in any way be connected. basically the commercial pilot cannot be employed by the same place that rents the plane.


we just had a lecture about not doing anything even close to what we're talking about here. we had some instances that bordered on "charter" and in my opinion its just not a good idea to even get involved with it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
A question we were talking about at work today:
What is stopping a flight school from, when approached with a request to "fly me to Atlanta [or whereever]", giving the guy a logbook, and have him do "flight training" with a flight school CFI and log the flight in the logbook (included in the cost) and call it "mission-based training"...

I realize the ethical obligations, but surely there are those who have no such ethics, and even those with the ethical obligations, if they taught the passenger to taxi/straight and level, would that constitute "enough"?

Just curious as to whether there are any sort of regulations on this, because I haven't the foggiest what to look for in the FARs....

And no need for the "don't do it because it's ethically wrong"... Yes, I know, this is a hypothetical question.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a customer comes in and states " I want you to fly me to Atlanta and I will pay you $500 to do it. Any commercial pilot can do this. Legal.

If a customer comes in and says, "I need to go to Atlanta." And then the commercial pilot says' "I can fly you there for $500." Not legal.
 
[ QUOTE ]
A question we were talking about at work today:
What is stopping a flight school from, when approached with a request to "fly me to Atlanta [or whereever]", giving the guy a logbook, and have him do "flight training" with a flight school CFI and log the flight in the logbook (included in the cost) and call it "mission-based training"...


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I asked an inspector at the San Jose FSDO that same question once.

Not legal.

Don't ask me why or how, but at least this inspector would have a field day with this.
 
An aviation lawyer here runs a briefing on this kind of stuff, along with a former FAA member, and what I stated is allowed. It just can't be advertised. But if I went in to rent a plane and had someone else fly it for me, that's fine. It is just like someone owning his/her own plane and hiring a pilot for his services.

I'll see if I can get ahold of the actual powerpoint, I know Mtts422 worked with this lawyer summer and he would know more about it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If a customer comes in and states " I want you to fly me to Atlanta and I will pay you $500 to do it. Any commercial pilot can do this. Legal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that be common carriage because you are holding out, and fall under 135?

Now, if the guy says 'I have this barron and I need someone to fly me in it for my business trips'... then pt91 is okay.
 
[ QUOTE ]

If a customer comes in and states " I want you to fly me to Atlanta and I will pay you $500 to do it. Any commercial pilot can do this. Legal.


[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. With just the details you gave, that's not legal.

I agree with Ed, above. If he already had a plane and was simply looking for a pilot, that's a whole other story and perfectly legal.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a customer comes in and states " I want you to fly me to Atlanta and I will pay you $500 to do it. Any commercial pilot can do this. Legal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that be common carriage because you are holding out, and fall under 135?

Now, if the guy says 'I have this barron and I need someone to fly me in it for my business trips'... then pt91 is okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely think you are okay in the Baron example. No problem there.

Common Carriage is the willingness to enter into a contract to perform services for anybody.

If the guy comes in...says he wants you to fly him to ATL...then you go and rent an airplane and fly him there...I do think that would infringe upon the spirit of common carriage.

I am not familiar with legal precedence in this matter. If you have an exclusive contract with one guy...and you don't fly anyone else...it may be legal to rent an airplane and fly him around.

Anyone have a legal reference?
 
The FAA has had a recent big-time crackdown on this sort of stuff.
They will even question training in an aircraft that is not appropriate for where a student is in his or her training (such as a student pilot getting instruction in a Baron on a cross country to Las Vegas).
 
I've done a lot research on this topic as an independent study with our aviation law prof at UND.

I've read just about every case that has occured since 1992 that has to do with illegal 135 ops. There are a few cases out there that deal with this exact scenario.

My favorite example is a case where a low time CFI is asked by his boss to fly the local chief of police to another town so that he could visit his wife in the hospital. The CFI knew that this would be illegal, but his boss justified it by telling him that the chief was interested in flight training and that the CFI should log it as dual-given in order to justify Pt. 91 ops. Long story short, the FAA cought wind and suspended the CFI's licenses for 90 days (later reduced to 30 on appeal).

This case alone is stare decisis (sets precedent) on the original example making it a canidate for a violation.

[ QUOTE ]
If a customer comes in and states " I want you to fly me to Atlanta and I will pay you $500 to do it. Any commercial pilot can do this. Legal.


[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. As long as the pilot was not "holding himself out" it is perfectly legal. This is assuming:
A.) The guy who hired the pilot owns his own a/c and is hiring to fly that a/c

or

B.)The pilot is employed by an FBO and the a/c is being rented or supplied from a completely different entity, making it a "dry" lease which is legal.

The morale of the story is that if you have any doubt whatsoever as to the legality of a flight, DON"T DO IT!!! If you think it's illegal, the FAA will more than likely be able to at least attempt to prosecute you. If there is one thing I've learned from this research, it's the pure ruthlessness of the FAA. Having said that, there are many examples of people who very well deserved the full wrath of the FAA due to the fact that they are complete idiots. However, there are just as many cases with people who made honest mistakes. Only to find themselves in front of an administrative law judge and the FAA trying to REVOKE their certificates.

While I am on the topic...As I said I've been working on this research project and I'm almost complete with the research aspect of it. The next step is to develope some sort of program that will be in depth and have simplified explanations of 91 v. 135 regs. It will more than likely be interactive and hopefully put on a CD-ROM for distribution. As I said this is still in the preliminary stages of development. The software will be distributed out to all UND students. My professor and I have kicked around the idea of making it available to the general public as well, so I was curious if any of you guys would be interested in purchasing a program like this. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Sorry for the long ass post! Hope it cleared some things up though.

-Matt
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've done a lot research on this topic as an independent study with our aviation law prof at UND.

I've read just about every case that has occured since 1992 that has to do with illegal 135 ops. There are a few cases out there that deal with this exact scenario.

My favorite example is a case where a low time CFI is asked by his boss to fly the local chief of police to another town so that he could visit his wife in the hospital. The CFI knew that this would be illegal, but his boss justified it by telling him that the chief was interested in flight training and that the CFI should log it as dual-given in order to justify Pt. 91 ops. Long story short, the FAA cought wind and suspended the CFI's licenses for 90 days (later reduced to 30 on appeal).

This case alone is stare decisis (sets precedent) on the original example making it a canidate for a violation.

[ QUOTE ]
If a customer comes in and states " I want you to fly me to Atlanta and I will pay you $500 to do it. Any commercial pilot can do this. Legal.


[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. As long as the pilot was not "holding himself out" it is perfectly legal. This is assuming:
A.) The guy who hired the pilot owns his own a/c and is hiring to fly that a/c

or

B.)The pilot is employed by an FBO and the a/c is being rented or supplied from a completely different entity, making it a "dry" lease which is legal.

The morale of the story is that if you have any doubt whatsoever as to the legality of a flight, DON"T DO IT!!! If you think it's illegal, the FAA will more than likely be able to at least attempt to prosecute you. If there is one thing I've learned from this research, it's the pure ruthlessness of the FAA. Having said that, there are many examples of people who very well deserved the full wrath of the FAA due to the fact that they are complete idiots. However, there are just as many cases with people who made honest mistakes. Only to find themselves in front of an administrative law judge and the FAA trying to REVOKE their certificates.

While I am on the topic...As I said I've been working on this research project and I'm almost complete with the research aspect of it. The next step is to develope some sort of program that will be in depth and have simplified explanations of 91 v. 135 regs. It will more than likely be interactive and hopefully put on a CD-ROM for distribution. As I said this is still in the preliminary stages of development. The software will be distributed out to all UND students. My professor and I have kicked around the idea of making it available to the general public as well, so I was curious if any of you guys would be interested in purchasing a program like this. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Sorry for the long ass post! Hope it cleared some things up though.

-Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Rather than selling it, the Air Safety Foundation may be interested in having an online interactive version of it. Particularly since the AOPA has reported about the 135 illegal charter crackdown recently. It is very difficult to get people to pay for software such as this anyway, plus the more pilots who learn from it the better for us all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top