IFR XC Questions (14 CFR § 61.65(d)(2)(iii))

aloft

aloft

New Member
I'm trying to plan my IFR XC for my instrument rating and running into a few questions.

14 CFR § 61.65(d)(2)(iii) states:

For an instrument—airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of—
(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems;
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First, this doesn't require approaches at more than two airports, correct? So it's legal to fly to a destination (provided the 250 nm along airways or ATC-directed routing is met), shoot two different approaches into that airport, then return and shoot an approach into your airport of origin?

Second, what types of approaches are considered "different"? Broadly, I'm guessing the types are NDB, GPS, VOR and LOC/LDA/SDF and ILS, right?
 
I think you're correct...as long as the approaches are different. I flew from KSAC down to Monterey, stopped at Modesto and then shot a localizer only apprach at KSMF...though I guess technically it could have been done at 2 airports. It never really specifies 3 airports, just 3 different approaches...
 
Make certain they are 3 different type of approaches using different systems. i.e. ILS, GPS, VOR. I would not recommend a LOC and ILS, as I have heard some examiners say it is the same system (localizer based) and doesn't count. Just a little CYA :)
 
aloft said:
I'm trying to plan my IFR XC for my instrument rating and running into a few questions.

14 CFR § 61.65(d)(2)(iii) states:

#1 First, this doesn't require approaches at more than two airports, correct? #2So it's legal to fly to a destination (provided the 250 nm along airways or ATC-directed routing is met), shoot two different approaches into that airport, then return and shoot an approach into your airport of origin?

#3 Second, what types of approaches are considered "different"? Broadly, I'm guessing the types are NDB, GPS, VOR and LOC/LDA/SDF and ILS, right?
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#1 Never thought of it that way, I just assumed (I Know) 3 approaches, 3 airports.....

#2 Reading it now, that makes perfect sense and probably saves a few bucks on gas.

#3 On my long IFR x/c, I did an ILS, ASR, then VOR. I'd go with ILS,VOR,GPS. If you can get an ASR approach, give it a try. The controllers wanted to give a visual approach, but when I mentioned I was on an IFR x/c training flight, they were more than happy to give me the ASR.
 
I was just having this discussion with my Instructor. I read it as you can just shoot 2 approaches in to 1 airport then go back to your home field. He didnt think so.

A Visual is technicaly a "IFR" type of approach
 
Champcar said:
A Visual is technicaly a "IFR" type of approach
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Hahaha....nice one! You're right of course, but here's the sticking point: which "navigation system" does a visual approach use? I don't think Mk I Eyeballs count...

While we're on the subject, wouldn't that disqualify an ASR approach too? It's all vectors, no navigation system employed.
 
bike21 said:
Make certain they are 3 different type of approaches using different systems. i.e. ILS, GPS, VOR. I would not recommend a LOC and ILS, as I have heard some examiners say it is the same system (localizer based) and doesn't count. Just a little CYA :)
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I was told that a localizer approach (even on the same chart as an ILS) is a different approach and does count towards the requirement...if you do one ILS and one localizer. They are different approaches with different minimums...
 
aloft said:
Hahaha....nice one! You're right of course, but here's the sticking point: which "navigation system" does a visual approach use? I don't think Mk I Eyeballs count...

While we're on the subject, wouldn't that disqualify an ASR approach too? It's all vectors, no navigation system employed.
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I sure hope it doesn't matter. I would have a weak argument that the navigation system employed was the eyes and radar of the controller. :insane: The point is now moot as I have my instrument rating. I'm more curious as to the approaches into two fields instead of one.
 
aloft said:
First, this doesn't require approaches at more than two airports, correct? So it's legal to fly to a destination (provided the 250 nm along airways or ATC-directed routing is met), shoot two different approaches into that airport, then return and shoot an approach into your airport of origin?
Click to expand...
Yes, with one caveat: It still needs to meet the definition for a "cross country" under 61.1(b)(3) that qualifies to be counted for the instrument rating. That means you still need to land at one airport that is >50 NM from your point of origination.
Second, what types of approaches are considered "different"? Broadly, I'm guessing the types are NDB, GPS, VOR and LOC/LDA/SDF and ILS, right?
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Yep. There's a list of them in the defunct Part 61 FAQ. I'm pretty sure that things like ASR doesn't count and I think that approaches that are based on the same navaid aren't treated as different, so, for example, I don't think that a LOC and ILS off the same localizer are thought of a different, but I'm not completely sure of that.
 
MusketeerMan said:
I was told that a localizer approach (even on the same chart as an ILS) is a different approach and does count towards the requirement...if you do one ILS and one localizer. They are different approaches with different minimums...
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Just like Mark said above, they likely will not count as different approaches. IMO, why push it? Just do 3 totally different approaches anyway :)

I'll bet different examiners would give different answers on this one too. I know one examiner I used to use was adamant that a LOC and ILS didn't count.
 
bike21 said:
Just like Mark said above, they likely will not count as different approaches. IMO, why push it? Just do 3 totally different approaches anyway :)

I'll bet different examiners would give different answers on this one too. I know one examiner I used to use was adamant that a LOC and ILS didn't count.
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My checkride consisted of an ILS approach, a LOC Backcourse, and Partial Panel VOR approach. I would have to say that LOC and ILS are different because of the lack of verticle guidance. Doing it as a Backcourse may be the point making the difference on my checkride.

When I did my IFR XC, I did an ILS a VOR and a NDB at 3 different airports just to be safe. I am not a big fan of looking for the little loopholes in the FAR's. Just do it at 3 different airports and 3 different types of approaches, that have an appropriate approach plate. That being said a Visual Approach does not have a plate.:)

That was my interpretation of the requirement. Technically you could do it a only 2 airports, but why give the DPE an excuse.
 
A visual approach technically isnt an instrument approach procedure (IAP) since it does not have a missed approach segment.
 
Okay, here's the revised plan; should cover all the necessary bases, let me know if I've missed any important requirements.

Leg 1: KOGD..OGD..V101..MALTT..KBYI GPS Rwy 20 -> missed;
divert to "alternate" (KTWF) via BYI VORTAC, KTWF ILS Rwy 25

Leg 2: Route: KTWF..SNAKO1.ROGET..V253..LCU..V6..OGD..KOGD VOR Rwy 7

'bout 300nm total.
 
desertdog71 said:
That being said a Visual Approach does not have a plate.:)
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You sure about that mr.? PHX has a few visual approaches that are on approach plates. :nana2:
 
desertdog71 said:
This is the first I have seen of anything like this. All I can say is COOL!!!
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1st I have known of it as well. I would have said no way too. So I went to AirNav.....Wonder how many there are......
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Yes, with one caveat: It still needs to meet the definition for a "cross country" under 61.1(b)(3) that qualifies to be counted for the instrument rating. That means you still need to land at one airport that is >50 NM from your point of origination.
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Funny you say that. My IFR XC was never a "cross country" because we never landed. My instructor at the time said that doing the approach made it count. A year after the fact I agree that it was not a technically correct "xc". Water under the bridge now since the examiner never caught this.
 
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