IFR n' Stuff (Whilst Freight Doggin) Scenario

[flyingbum]

Scenario.

• You're part 135
• Center Stored Flight Plan
• Departed IFR on a scheduled flight
• Destination Required an Alternate, but (none filed or not communicated with company) Cuz, freightDOG! DOI!!!
• Flying along fat, dumb, AND happy
• WX is Hard IMC, but alternates exist (No VFR escape though)
• Enroute Lost Comms.

Tell me about a time?
What would you do?

Discuss...

Likes for answers that reference being Triggered for "Whilst" in the title

 

[deadstick]

PPPPPP

You talked to ATC to get released, right? If you know no alternate was filed, tell them whilst you have them on the line. You’re the PIC, and you bum is on the line.

Cheerio.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Possible violation of the filing requirements aside, what is the operational difference between having a filed alternate and not having a filed alternate? None Part 91 since there is no requirement to ever go to a filed alternate. Is there something in Part 135 or OpSpecs saying something different?

I'd follow basic lost comm rules to try the destination and, whilst failing that, head to the best alternative.

 

[NovemberEcho]

You're a freight dog. Squawk 1200 and go to your alternate. IMC be damned.

 

[deadstick]

Possible violation of the filing requirements aside, what is the operational difference between having a filed alternate and not having a filed alternate? None Part 91 since there is no requirement to ever go to a filed alternate. Is there something in Part 135 or OpSpecs saying something different?

I'd follow basic lost comm rules to try the destination and, whilst failing that, head to the best alternative.

I’d follow that up with plan on showing your paperwork (you had a legal alt and the required fuel) to a friendly memeber of the FDSO.

 

[A300Capt]

Call’em on your spare handheld transceiver (you do have one, don’t you?) or your cellphone.

 

[DE727UPS]

Lost comms is an emergency. Put 7700 in your transponder and go wherever you need to save your ass. Maybe a closer airport that has an ILS so you have some extra gas in case you can't get in. If following the FAR lost comm procedure makes you uncomfortable cause you'll get low on gas going all that way, then go somewhere closer. You get to decide. Published minimums on an ILS or make up your own? You get to decide. Follow what you think is the safest course of action to get your butt on the ground. 91.3 gives you the right to do what you need to do once you declare an emergency.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Lost comms is an emergency. Put 7700 in your transponder and go wherever you need to save your ass. Maybe a closer airport that has an ILS so you have some extra gas in case you can't get in. If following the FAR lost comm procedure makes you uncomfortable cause you'll get low on gas going all that way, then go somewhere closer. You get to decide. Published minimums on an ILS or make up your own? You get to decide. Follow what you think is the safest course of action to get your butt on the ground. 91.3 gives you the right to do what you need to do once you declare an emergency.

7600 is the correct lost comms squawk.

 

[milleR]

7600 is the correct lost comms squawk.

I think his point is 7700 = do whatever you need to do to get on the ground. Lost comms in hard IMC would fit my definition of an emergency.

7600 = go to destination via avef, fly approach, then go to alternate (not filed in this particular case) fly approach. Crash because out of gas.

 

[DE727UPS]

Yeah. Would make more sense to start with 7700 and switch to 7600. 7700 to declare and the 7600 so ATC understands it's lost comm. Thanks for the correction.

 

[DE727UPS]

7600 is the correct lost comms squawk.

Question for a controller. Let's say I'm flying a B99 with EWR as my destination and have a lost comm. Would you rather I find some podunk field with an ILS to land at or keep coming at you. The FAR lost comm procedure mandates that I go to my filed destination unless I happen to find VMC conditions or declare an emergency and do my own thing. I would think a lost comm coming into EWR would really mess up the works for ATC.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Question for a controller. Let's say I'm flying a B99 with EWR as my destination and have a lost comm. Would you rather I find some podunk field with an ILS to land at or keep coming at you. The FAR lost comm procedure mandates that I go to my filed destination unless I happen to find VMC conditions or declare an emergency and do my own thing. I would think a lost comm coming into EWR would really mess up the works for ATC.

NORDO here can send everyone into a panic depending on your direction lol. Especially when you were talking and then stopped so we aren't even sure you are aware you're NORDO and maybe hit a button by accident. But if you were squeaking 7600 we'd pretty much just watch you and work around you as needed. If you're actually squawking 7600 and not just lost in frequency land, I'd rather you follow the procedures. If you just took it upon yourself to go somewhere else (especially an uncontrolled field) we'd be scrambling SAR. But to add to DE727, a mix of 7700 and then 7600 would be most beneficial if you were going to do that.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

NORDO here can send everyone into a panic depending on your direction lol. Especially when you were talking and then stopped so we aren't even sure you are aware you're NORDO and maybe hit a button by accident. But if you were squeaking 7600 we'd pretty much just watch you and work around you as needed. If you're actually squawking 7600 and not just lost in frequency land, I'd rather you follow the procedures. If you just took it upon yourself to go somewhere else (especially an uncontrolled field) we'd be scrambling SAR. But to add to DE727, a mix of 7700 and then 7600 would be most beneficial if you were going to do that.

Question: at what point would you consider taking the extra steps to find out what the filed alternate was? (Assuming there was one)

 

[NovemberEcho]

Question: at what point would you consider taking the extra steps to find out what the filed alternate was? (Assuming there was one)

Maybe if they went missed? If they were going to EWR and had made it to the point that they were my problem I would be operating under the understanding they were still going to EWR.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Maybe if they went missed? If they were going to EWR and had made it to the point that they were my problem I would be operating under the understanding they were still going to EWR.

That's why I was wondering. Even missed they wouldn't have to go to the filed alternate. But I guess knowing what they filed would let you know fairly quickly if they were heading there or not.

 

[Roger Roger]

Raise FSS on your cell and tell them to notify Center of where you’re going.

 

[flyingbum]

Thanks for all the input guys, all great answers. I bring this up out of curiosity because I recently heard about someone not communicating their alternate to their dispatch or ATC when it was required according to Pt. 135

I've had this scenario quite a few times and twice in the last few months.

I get to my destination and low visibility below mins. Forecast looked good and no alternate required. I'm in the soup and it's IMC all around so no VFR escape. WX goes to 1/4 sm vis and I had to go elsewhere. No biggie, but it did make me think about lost comms and what would ATC want me to do since I had no filed alternate. I think a combination of 7700 and 7600 would suffice to alert ATC of the problems, and as soon as they see 7700 they're probably going to move everyone out of your way. I did work for an operator that actually had call/text Dispatcher from your cell phone of intentions in their Ops Manual.

@A300Capt Good call having a handheld, I think I might make that investment.

 

[Roger Roger]

Something to think about is that in this day and age a failure that renders you nordo and unable to at least use another frequency is unlikely to leave you with a working transponder and working navs.