IFR Lost Comm Question

[meritflyer]

When you receive your clearance and they tell you "maintain 4,000 expect 10,000 10 min. after takeoff". Assuming you lost comms right after takeoff, you are supposed to initiate your climb to 10,000. Is the reason for the "expect 10,000 10 min. after takeoff" so if you had lost comms maybe 8 min after takeoff?

Said another way, why would they give you the "expect (altitude) 10 minutes after takeoff" if they expect you to initiate your climb to your assigned altitude right after you lost comms?

(Hopefully that came across right )

 

[mastermags]

Who said you are supposed to initiate the climb immediately?

 

[meritflyer]

My DE gave me the scenario - If you just took off, had radio failure immediately after lift off and in your clearance were told cleared to airport X, radar vectors to VOR B, climb and maintain 4,000, expect 10,000 feet 10 min after takeoff...

He said that you should immediately initiate that climb to 10,000 after lost comms. My understanding was to fly at the initial altitude for the 10 min then climb to the altitude they told you to expect but only after the 10 min after takeoff.

 

[Malko]

It has been a bit since I hit the IFR books, but Ill take a shot at what I remember: For lost comms: AVEF - MEA

in order

Heading:
Assigned
Vectored
Expected
as Filed

Altitude:
Minimum Enroute Altitude
Expected
Assigned

So....going by that If I understand your question, I would say start your climb to the expected right away. If you have Lost Comms, then ATC will be Expecting you at 10000 in 10 mins and not expecting you to start your climb in 10 mins.

 

[AlexF]

So....going by that If I understand your question, I would say start your climb to the expected right away. If you have Lost Comms, then ATC will be Expecting you at 10000 in 10 mins and not expecting you to start your climb in 10 mins.

Assuming 10,000 is the highest of the altitudes. I always thought expect 10,000 10mins later ment 10mins after departure you can expect ATC to advise you to start your climb. So in other words, 10mins after you depart from the runway, you would start to climb to 10,000. But I'm only 2/3 done with my IR.

 

[Malko]

Assuming 10,000 is the highest of the altitudes. I always thought expect 10,000 10mins later ment 10mins after departure you can expect ATC to advise you to start your climb. So in other words, 10mins after you depart from the runway, you would start to climb to 10,000. But I'm only 2/3 done with my IR.

That makes sense. Reading that, you just debunked my post. That does make more sense. You can Expect to be given 10000 at 10 mins, not be at 10000 in 10 mins. I have to stop trying to work,sleep, and cruise JC at the same time.

Back to work.

 

[Malko]

Now here's a question....If you lost comms immediately after TO, wouldn't you want to turn back to the field? I cannot imagine you would want to continue on a flight knowing you have lost comms.

 

[ColMustard]

Now here's a question....If you lost comms immediately after TO, wouldn't you want to turn back to the field? I cannot imagine you would want to continue on a flight knowing you have lost comms.

You have it right. ATC basically wants you out of their airspace and on the ground when they can't talk to you. Thats why the regs. mention if you are in VFR then stay in VFR and land as soon as practicable. ATC will be clearing out all airspace you're flying in (or are going to fly in) until you land and cancel IFR.

While in IMC you follow the Route/Altitude/Clearance limit rule. Someone already posted this (good acronyms to help remember), but here it is with a little more detail:

Route (in this order of precedence):

1.) Assigned
2.) Vectored
3.) Expected
3.) Filed

Altitude (highest of the following):

Minimum IFR altitude
Expected
Assigned


This is why the DE mentioned to climb immediately to 10,000', though I can see where this might be a conflict. Why was ATC assigning a delay on the climb? Probably to avoid another aircraft at a higher altitude, so climbing immediately to 10,000' may cause a conflict.

Chances are you'll be in VFR by then, but there does need to be a procedure written somewhere huh?

-ColM

 

[PanJet]

Now here's a question....If you lost comms immediately after TO, wouldn't you want to turn back to the field? I cannot imagine you would want to continue on a flight knowing you have lost comms.

This is true. If I lost comms, I would squawk (spelled right?) 7600, and if I needed to I would set up for an approach back into the best airport (nearest, best appch., etc.). ATC will see that you are lost comms (assuming you're in radar contact) and clear the area long enough for you to get on the ground and out of their way. If conditions were VFR, just squawk 7600 and stay VFR to land.

I guess one question I would have is if conditions were VFR for the whole route of flight, but you filed IFR and lost comms, would you continue the flight VFR after squawking lost comms even if it meant you were in the air for a long period of time with no comms? Would ATC know that you went VFR and were going to continue the flight VFR? This is of course assuming that you could complete the flight without a radio otherwise (staying away from Class D, C, B, etc.).

 

[EatSleepFly]

That makes sense. Reading that, you just debunked my post. That does make more sense. You can Expect to be given 10000 at 10 mins, not be at 10000 in 10 mins. I have to stop trying to work,sleep, and cruise JC at the same time.

Back to work.

You were right the first time.

The altitude is the highest of MEA, Expected, or Assigned.

If you squawk 7600 and continue on, they will be expecting you to climb to your expected altitude, and will clear the airspace as needed.

 

[ColMustard]

This is true. If I lost comms, I would squawk (spelled right?) 7600, and if I needed to I would set up for an approach back into the best airport (nearest, best appch., etc.). ATC will see that you are lost comms (assuming you're in radar contact) and clear the area long enough for you to get on the ground and out of their way. If conditions were VFR, just squawk 7600 and stay VFR to land.

I guess one question I would have is if conditions were VFR for the whole route of flight, but you filed IFR and lost comms, would you continue the flight VFR after squawking lost comms even if it meant you were in the air for a long period of time with no comms? Would ATC know that you went VFR and were going to continue the flight VFR? This is of course assuming that you could complete the flight without a radio otherwise (staying away from Class D, C, B, etc.).

Are you IMC when you lose comms? In that case you DO NOT setup for the nearest or best approach, you continue on with the flight (squawking 7600) sticking to the rules on route, altitude, and clearance limit. When you get your clearance (CRAFT) you have all three, just stick to the rules from Part 91 and ATC will be able to predict your next move. If that means you fly for another 30 minutes in the soup with lost comms then so-be-it.

Hopefully you'll hit VFR sometime before that occurs, THEN you can land at the nearest/best airport and call ATC via 1-800-WX-BRIEF

-ColM

 

[GaTechKid]

My understanding is that ATC gives the "expect XX in XX" specifically in case you experience lost comms. I spent 20 minutes trying to find an example in the Instrument Flying Handbook and Jepp Instrument Book that could shed some light on whether you would wait XX minutes before climbing but was unable. I think you can interpret the reg to make either answer correct.

 

[PhotoPilot]

When it comes to altitude, the actual ATC phrasing is, "Climb and maintain 6000, expect 10,000 within 10 minutes." At least in my experience, the most common reason for an expected altitude has to do with the controlling agency's authority rather than traffic (since IFR arrivals and departures generally exist in different quadrants).

In my case, I often depart from a class D airport whose tower only controls airspace up to 4000. 4000 will always be my assigned altitude when I get my clearance from ground and they let me know that I can expect my filed altitude within 10 minutes of departure. As soon as they switch me to departure (TRACON), I get the clearance to my filed or requested altitude since they have the authority to clear me higher than 4000.

If I lost comms before switching to Dep but while already in IMC, I would immediately initiate a climb to my expected altitude because departure was planning to send me higher once I was handed off.

 

[FOD]

You guys are wrong. Refer to aim section 4 that talks about "Two-Way Radio Communications Failure".

"If the pilot received an "expect further clearance" containing a higher altitude to expect at a specified time or fix, maintain the highest of the following altitude until that time/fix: 1. the last assigned or 2. the minimum altitude level for IFR operations"
FOD

 

[specialK]

Are you IMC when you lose comms? In that case you DO NOT setup for the nearest or best approach, you continue on with the flight (squawking 7600) sticking to the rules on route, altitude, and clearance limit. When you get your clearance (CRAFT) you have all three, just stick to the rules from Part 91 and ATC will be able to predict your next move. If that means you fly for another 30 minutes in the soup with lost comms then so-be-it.

Hopefully you'll hit VFR sometime before that occurs, THEN you can land at the nearest/best airport and call ATC via 1-800-WX-BRIEF

-ColM

:yeahthat:
One other thing to add as well. If you are in IMC you want to continue with your flight b/c if ATC loses radar coverage they are not expecting you to turn around and come back. If you did that would screw everything up b/c they do everything with times and fixes for loss of radar coverage and they don't want a loose cannon flying around not knowing what he will do

 

[Malko]

You guys are wrong. Refer to aim section 4 that talks about "Two-Way Radio Communications Failure".

"If the pilot received an "expect further clearance" containing a higher altitude to expect at a specified time or fix, maintain the highest of the following altitude until that time/fix: 1. the last assigned or 2. the minimum altitude level for IFR operations"
FOD

I would venture to say that you would be wrong. In the event of Lost Comm you shoud follow the acronym and maintain the higher of the three:

Altitude (highest of the following):
Minimum IFR altitude (maybe 3000 here)
Expected (expected 10000)
Assigned (assigned 4000)

Your expected altitude was 10000 and your assigned was 4000. Go to 10000 as soon as you lost comm.

 

[FOD]

"I would venture to say that you would be wrong."

Read the AIM, cause if i'm wrong then the AIM is wrong. They make it pretty clear in there that you wait till the spot or time that you were told to expect before using the expected altitude if it is the highest.

P.S. How do you get the post to block out the quote?

 

[jrh]

:yeahthat:
One other thing to add as well. If you are in IMC you want to continue with your flight b/c if ATC loses radar coverage they are not expecting you to turn around and come back. If you did that would screw everything up b/c they do everything with times and fixes for loss of radar coverage and they don't want a loose cannon flying around not knowing what he will do

I've heard this debate go 'round and 'round before. "Do you turn around or do you continue on with lost comms?"

Like so many things with flying, I don't think this is as clear cut one way or the other as some people think it is. The regs and procedures say one thing, but in my opinion, sometimes common sense says to do differently. You have to take into account the situation and try to decide what will be safest and easiest action for the controller.

Here's two scenarios. Assume that you'll be in solid IMC for the duration of your planned trip:

Let's say you're departing a busy airport in or near Class B airspace. The controllers are talking a mile a minute sequencing everybody for approaches into the field you're departing from. Your destination is a quiet airport 150 miles away. You lose comms shortly after takeoff. In this case, you'd be stupid to turn around and shoot an approach into a random airport or your airport of departure. You'd be that dreaded loose cannon and make the controller's life hell until you were on the ground. You'd be better off flying your clearance and getting out of their hair.

On the other hand, let's say you're departing a quiet field that gets an inbound flight once or twice an hour. Your destination is a busy field in or near Class B airspace, 150 miles away. You takeoff and loose comms five minutes after departure. Would you fly along for an hour, blasting into busy airspace, and shoot whatever approach you pick out for yourself, all without talking to a controller? Or would you squawk 7600, turn around, set yourself up for the approach into the departure airport, and assume the controller understands your intentions? He can probably vector one or two planes out of the way, if there are even that many in the area. Personally, I'd take the latter option, and I think most controllers would thank me for it. Even though the first option is technically legal and correct, I think it would create a headache for everybody involved.

 

[PanJet]

I would venture to say that you would be wrong. In the event of Lost Comm you shoud follow the acronym and maintain the higher of the three:

Altitude (highest of the following):
Minimum IFR altitude (maybe 3000 here)
Expected (expected 10000)
Assigned (assigned 4000)

Your expected altitude was 10000 and your assigned was 4000. Go to 10000 as soon as you lost comm.

FOD is correct. You don't just climb to 10000 ASAP. The entire reason ATC doesn't climb you immediately to 10000 is because they probably can't because of traffic. Otherwise why would they have you stay at 4000 for 10 minutes? It's similar to an EFC time while holding. If you loose comms, you don't leave the hold whenever you feel like it. You wait until the EFC time to exit the hold and continue on route or approach or whatever you are waiting for a clearance for. ATC does this because they can't have you proceed at that point because another aircraft may be shooting the approach, a route may be crossing paths, etc. so they have to have you wait.

As for my earlier comment, I stand corrected as a whole, but my intention was for more along the line what JRH had to say. There needs to be some discretion involved. For example, what if you're on vectors? Are you just going to fly that same vector until you run out of fuel or into a mountain? I've been in cases where I'm on a vector for spacing or even a really odd vector to a final approach coarse that required a couple extra turns to actually get to the FAC, and in a couple of those cases I didn't have any other routes (assigned, expected, filed) to use because I was on a pop-up clearance. If I lost comms in that case, I'd aim for an IAF or at least a fix that would be easy to find and navigate to an IAF (VOR, NDB if I absolutely had to) and use the MSA or a sectional backup to make sure I wasn't going to run into anything along the way.

 

[VicariousLiving]

I would venture to say that you would be wrong. In the event of Lost Comm you shoud follow the acronym and maintain the higher of the three:

Altitude (highest of the following):
Minimum IFR altitude (maybe 3000 here)
Expected (expected 10000)
Assigned (assigned 4000)

Your expected altitude was 10000 and your assigned was 4000. Go to 10000 as soon as you lost comm.

I would venture to say that you should stay on the ground and seek some serious retraining--the holes in your education are potentially deadly to you and to everyone who might have the misfortune to share the skies with you. Anyone who would suggest that some memory ditty created by persons unknown is an authoritative reference that trumps a definitive FAA publication (AIM) has absolutely zero business flying, and certainly no business flying IFR.