IFR in Class G

[jrh]

Rediculously dangerous (RD). Yup, in many cases. Nothing out there in G? Antenna farms, hills, mountains, water towers, other airplanes, and on and on. G isn't G because there's nothing out there. It's G because radar coverage is spotty. Why does G stop at 14500 MSL? Because the highest mountain in the lower 48 is 14493. Above that, there's no problem with radar shadow. But there is certainly stuff out there!

Totally agree with you when talking about Class G down low. But then you'd be breaking the IFR terrain clearance regs if you were that low, wouldn't you? I was trying to make the case of flying well above terrain, therefore other aircraft are all you need to worry about running into.

To do it the way it's been suggested here, it would be RD. First, the big sky theory sure as heck won't keep you safe forever. There may be another guy out there and you'd have no way to know until he was in your cockpit. Thats RD.

Alright. We can agree to disagree. In the Class G airspace I've seen, it's incredibly devoid of traffic. Of course, I'm talking about the Class G above 10,000 feet over mountains, with no major airports for miles and miles. Anywhere with a measureable amount of traffic, I agree with you.

There was also the suggestion that you could go 'as low as you want' and do 'whatever you want in G'. Good luck. Unless you have GPS, you may not have nav coverage. No nav coverage in IMC is RD.

I agree. I was talking about using GPS.

Obstacle and terrain clearance is also huge. Unless you're above the grid MORA/OROCA, you've got no assurances. Flying below that, especially in the G under a 1200 or 700 foot E shelf? Again, RD.

I totally agree. But if you're down low, you're breaking the 2000 foot terrain clearance rule (in mountainous areas). I was talking about flying thousands of feet above any terrain for many miles.

Not to mention that there are no approaches (that I know of) existing entirely in uncontrolled airspace. Following the suggested "Go lower until you break out" method mentioned earlier? RD.

Once again, I totally agree. I was referring to enroute operations only.

However, enroute, at altitude, and when you know you can get to VFR or onto a clearance before descending below a safe altitude is one place that the risks might be acceptable.

That's precisely what I was talking about...enroute only.

When it's the only way, when risks are known, accounted for, and reduced, it might be reasonable. But those situations are so few and far between that most of us will never be in one. I've done a lot of unusual flying in places where there's a lot of G to abnormally high altitudes and I have yet to find a situation where I personally saw need to use this particular trick.

I never said it was a common trick...only that I don't see anything wrong with it if that's what it comes down to. You're right, I'll probably never use this in the real world. But I think it can be safe, in theory.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I wish my memory would yield the long lost tidbit. If it would, then I would cite the NTSB case file, and then we could end this confusion. What I'm trying to tell you is that the FAA has decided that FAR allowed or not, the FAA will bust anyone operating in Class G in weather less than required for VMC without an IFR clearance. Period. No nuances, no subtleties, nothing.

I don't have the case at hand either, but, as I recall, it's not quite the blanket prohibition you suggest.

Technically, an aircraft in Class G doesn't =have= a clearance while in Class G - the clearance is not applicable until the aircraft enters controlled airspace. That's pretty much what "controlled airspace" is about - airspace in which ATC provides services and has a right to exercise control. (Note the language contained in takeoff clearances from Class G: "Upon entering controlled airspace...." )

As I remember, the cases that put the kibosh on flying in IMC in Class G involve aircraft that are in some way posing a danger to aircraft in controlled airspace. I think one involves an aircraft taking off from a Class G airport in an area conducive to ground fog. An aircraft taking off in those conditions without communicating with ATC or obtaining an IFR clearance that will apply as soon as the aircraft moves into Class E poses a risk to aircraft that are already in IMC in controlled airspace. (Which pretty much covers the situation as you described it in your earlier post).

That's a very different situation than flying over a mountain pass in Class G airspace 300-400' above a cloud capping the ridge and moving up the sides of the peaks above you (less than a mile away on either side) in otherwise severe clear conditions without filing an IFR flight plan. (Damn! I =still= wish may camera had not been packed in my bag the baggage compartment that day!)

 

[PhotoPilot]

I never said it was a common trick...only that I don't see anything wrong with it if that's what it comes down to. You're right, I'll probably never use this in the real world. But I think it can be safe, in theory.

Yeah. I read back through the posts and we pretty much agreed with eachother throughout. I was just to forum happy to see it! My RD comments were with regard to some of the suggested ways to take advantage of the rule. It could be a viable option in specific cases when operating in specific ways - but I think those are few and far between.

Now, this is the 4th time I've typed this exact message, but every time I try to insert a smiley face, my browser closes. If you would, use your imagination and picture a little yellow smiley dude here: X