IFR in Class G

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
FAR 91.173 states no person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless they have received ATC clearance and filed a flight plan.

My question is, what is the requirements for IFR in class G or uncontrolled airspace? Can you operate under IFR without a flight plan and/or clearance?

Thanks.
 
meritflyer said:
My question is, what is the requirements for IFR in class G or uncontrolled airspace? Can you operate under IFR without a flight plan and/or clearance?

Yep, you certainly can!
 
So then why will air traffic control only clear one aircraft into class G airspace at a time?

(I wanted to answer this one outright with what Lloyd said, but I've got a lot of things floating around in my head about all that damned class G airspace in northern Michigan and thinking about how scarry it would be to have more than one aircraft in that airspace, without being on a flight plan, boring holes in clouds).
 
John Herreshoff said:
So then why will air traffic control only clear one aircraft into class G airspace at a time?

How can ATC "clear" and aircraft into class G if it is uncontrolled? My question still stands.

IFR in class G without a clearance / flightplan?
 
meritflyer said:
FAR 91.173 states no person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless they have received ATC clearance and filed a flight plan.

My question is, what is the requirements for IFR in class G or uncontrolled airspace? Can you operate under IFR without a flight plan and/or clearance?

Thanks.

Technically, according the the FARs it is legal, but in reality the FAA has and will nail the pilot for the catch-all "careless and reckless". The FAA has successfully held that to depart/land IFR in Class G you must have a clearance into the overlying controlled airspace. If my brain was working any better this evening I could cite the NTSB appeal (unsuccessful).
 
John Herreshoff said:
So then why will air traffic control only clear one aircraft into class G airspace at a time?
Because, once an aircraft HAS a clearance, it's the responsibility of ATC to provide seperation. If they don't have both aircraft under positive control, the rest of us have to wait until the controller knows what happened to the last guy!

meritflyer said:
How can ATC "clear" an (there's no "d" at the end of this word . . . ) aircraft into class G if it is uncontrolled?
ATC has to issue an aircraft a clearance in order for that aircraft to proceed under IFR, in IMC, in controlled airspace. In order to do that, there has to be a clearance limit. That clearance limit is typically (but not always) an airport.

Go out an listen to ATC issue IFR clearances to aircraft at satellite, uncontrolled airports. If it's a class "G" airport, the controller will often say, "Enter controlled airspace on a heading of . . . ". Why do they say that? Because in G, you can do pretty much whatever you want!!!

meritflyer said:
IFR in class G without a clearance / flightplan?
Didn't I already answer that?:confused:
 
Lloyd speaketh the truth!

As for the FAA busting people trying to fly below the controlled airspace in IFR, that IS reckless and stupid! The reg is designed for those large areas of uncontrolled airspace in the mountains or desolate areas without adequate radar coverage (like Northern Michigan). The answer to the separation question is that there is none, so watch out. It's entirely possible to smack into someone else doing the exact same thing!
 
Ok, so you'd say it isn't REQUIRED, but if you are transitioning from controlled to uncontrolled airspace ATC would only let one in at a time?

I think VL has a point here that you might get careless and reckless pulled on you if you tried to depart from a Class G airport without an IFR flight plan.

But let's dive into this a little further, if you really can do whatever you want in class G airspace (which I very much agree with), what stops you from ducking below mins on an approach? In fact let's say you get within the class G, call up approach and cancel, now you're uncontrolled, legally in IMC within class G airspace; couldn't you go as low as you wanted?
 
John Herreshoff said:
But let's dive into this a little further, if you really can do whatever you want in class G airspace (which I very much agree with), what stops you from ducking below mins on an approach? In fact let's say you get within the class G, call up approach and cancel, now you're uncontrolled, legally in IMC within class G airspace; couldn't you go as low as you wanted?

Well, let's be a little more specific - you can't do whatever you want, you just don't have to have an IFR clearance to operate in IMC in Class G. Everything else pretty much applies . . .

The rules in Part 91 are very specific with regards to descending below the DH/MDA on an IAP. That applies pretty much where ever you may be flying!
 
John Herreshoff said:
I think VL has a point here that you might get careless and reckless pulled on you if you tried to depart from a Class G airport without an IFR flight plan.

Just so it is perfectly clear, you "might get" represents the probability of the FAA seeing it. "Will get" represents the reality if the FAA does see it.

But let's dive into this a little further, if you really can do whatever you want in class G airspace (which I very much agree with), what stops you from ducking below mins on an approach? In fact let's say you get within the class G, call up approach and cancel, now you're uncontrolled, legally in IMC within class G airspace; couldn't you go as low as you wanted?

Perhaps I didn't state the position perfectly clearly, mistated it, or whatever, so let me try it again. The FAA has held that you will be busted for careless & reckless if you operate in Class G, in IMC without an IFR clearance for the overlying controlled airspace. Doesn't matter if you are coming, going, or just putting around. IOW, what you suggest/ask is illegal, according to the FAA and upheld by the NTSB...and if my fogged memory would just kick in I could remember the NTSB case.
 
John Herreshoff said:
Ok, so you'd say it isn't REQUIRED, but if you are transitioning from controlled to uncontrolled airspace ATC would only let one in at a time?

I think VL has a point here that you might get careless and reckless pulled on you if you tried to depart from a Class G airport without an IFR flight plan.

But let's dive into this a little further, if you really can do whatever you want in class G airspace (which I very much agree with), what stops you from ducking below mins on an approach? In fact let's say you get within the class G, call up approach and cancel, now you're uncontrolled, legally in IMC within class G airspace; couldn't you go as low as you wanted?

Your minimums are within a Class E shelf (or the floor of it). Can't provide an approach without first being able to guarantee radio reception. Every airport that has a VOR, NDB, or ILS is going to have some kind of class E shelf associated with it.

Therefore if you duck below you're doing so in controlled airspace.
 
VicariousLiving said:
The FAA has held that you will be busted for careless & reckless if you operate in Class G, in IMC without an IFR clearance for the overlying controlled airspace. Doesn't matter if you are coming, going, or just putting around. IOW, what you suggest/ask is illegal, according to the FAA and upheld by the NTSB...and if my fogged memory would just kick in I could remember the NTSB case.

The situation where I'm suggesting that it might be acceptable is when the class G doesn't have an immediate overlying airspace. Remember that there are places where G goes up to 14500 MSL and the surface may be 13500 feet below the boundary with E. In those areas, radar reception isn't available so ATC can't control it. Victory airways are still controlled, despite lack of radar coverage, but if you wanted to fly direct and avoid all areas of A, B, C, D, and E, you could technically do so without a clearance. Any airport you're heading for that has an approach will, indeed, have some type of controlled airspace over it, so you'd better get into VFR or get on an IFR plan with clearance before you get there. You would also be responsible for your own terrain clearance, which suggests you'd best be above the grid OROCA/MORA. Navigation would be spotty, as you route won't have been tested for VOR reception and your GPS will be the only source that you can reliably count on. Additionally, you could 'bump into' someone else as crazy as you.

Even when an approach takes you into an airport with the lowered class E floor, you may drop below it into uncontrolled airspace before reaching the MDA. What stops you from cancelling and going below mins? You'd be well below the grid MORA/OROCA and would have no way to guarantee obstruction clearance. That's where the FAA would have every right to nail you for reckless operation!

And, to clarify, just because I believe that it could legally be done with some illusion of safety, there's no way you'll ever see me doing it!
 
Don't forget, when you cancel IFR, you're saying you're VFR (cloud clearance requirements, etc.), so you can't just cancel IFR because you're in G airspace and say I'm good to go, since there's no control over the airspace. The FAA will eventually find out, whether it's an NTSB report, or one of their inspectors greeting you with the "Hi, I'm with the FAA and here to help you" greeting.

If you're on an approach that goes into class G, the controller will say radar services terminated, switch to advisory approved. This does not allow you to do whatever you want; you are still on an IFR clearance, just in or out of an uncontrolled airport. He/she will give you a way to cancel in the air or on the ground, and nobody will be allowed to legally shoot the approach until you cancel.

This is all assuming the clouds do not allow you to get in VFR or MVFR. I am talking about an approach to mins.

Now, having said that, definitely keep your eyes open. There are crazy people out there who come up with their own rules.

Another pet peeve of mine is the ground vis, either tower or ASOS reporting less than 3 miles vis, people can see the runway from 10 NM out, and people going in on a visual approach. It is NOT legal...you must have 3 miles vis reported for the visual, or 1 mile for the contact approach.

Fly safe.

TX
 
PhotoPilot said:
The situation where I'm suggesting that it might be acceptable is when the class G doesn't have an immediate overlying airspace. Remember that there are places where G goes up to 14500 MSL and the surface may be 13500 feet below the boundary with E. In those areas, radar reception isn't available so ATC can't control it. Victory airways are still controlled, despite lack of radar coverage, but if you wanted to fly direct and avoid all areas of A, B, C, D, and E, you could technically do so without a clearance.

I wish my memory would yield the long lost tidbit. If it would, then I would cite the NTSB case file, and then we could end this confusion. What I'm trying to tell you is that the FAA has decided that FAR allowed or not, the FAA will bust anyone operating in Class G in weather less than required for VMC without an IFR clearance. Period. No nuances, no subtelties, nothing. The FAA has decided they don't like what the FARs say about IFR legal without clearance in Class G and they have found the appropriate cork to apply to the bottle--"careless and reckless" operation. Within the case I'm trying to remember, the NTSB agreed that the FAA is legitimate in their position.

Now I have heard it is a brave new world in Alaska and the above doesn't apply there, but I haven't seen any case work that would suggest there is a difference between Alaska and the lower 48. YMMV.
 
Regardless, according to the FARs it might be possible, but I agree with the FAA. It's rediculously dangerous. Even in uncontrolled airspace, get a clearance, make position reports, and find your way to a Victor airway where nav reception and obstacle clearance have been determined to be valid.

I agree that it's not a smooth move, VL. I was just saying that according to the FARs, and the FARs alone (as I don't have any other reference), some bozo might be out there doing it right now . . . poor bastard.
 
VicariousLiving said:
Now I have heard it is a brave new world in Alaska and the above doesn't apply there, but I haven't seen any case work that would suggest there is a difference between Alaska and the lower 48. YMMV.

My girlfriend's brother flies Casa's in Alaska and she said he frequently departs from flat coastal areas without a clearance in IFR conditions, but that is Alaska and it seems like they do things different there.
 
PhotoPilot said:
Regardless, according to the FARs it might be possible, but I agree with the FAA. It's rediculously dangerous. Even in uncontrolled airspace, get a clearance, make position reports, and find your way to a Victor airway where nav reception and obstacle clearance have been determined to be valid.

I agree that it's not a smooth move, VL. I was just saying that according to the FARs, and the FARs alone (as I don't have any other reference), some bozo might be out there doing it right now . . . poor bastard.

How is it so dangerous? You're departing from an uncontrolled field into uncontrolled airspace. In the case of my girlfriend's brother they use it to depart from areas that are covered in a thin layer of fog. So its only a matter of minutes before they're on top and VFR. Sure they might be taking a small calculated increase in risk but its better than having airplanes stranded all day at remote villages.
 
PhotoPilot said:
Regardless, according to the FARs it might be possible, but I agree with the FAA. It's rediculously dangerous. Even in uncontrolled airspace, get a clearance, make position reports, and find your way to a Victor airway where nav reception and obstacle clearance have been determined to be valid.

Rediculously dangerous? Because you might run into another aircraft? The airspace is Class G for a reason...because there is nothing out there. I think the big sky theory would apply.

Also, by the last portion of your post, it sounds like you won't go IFR off-airway. Never GPS direct anywhere? As for obstacle clearance...if you're up at 13,000 or 14,000, you'd have to be in some very high terrain to violate the 2000 foot clearance rule.

Honestly, I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here...but I don't know if I'd call it "rediculously dangerous" either. To me it sounds like the kind of thing that is acceptable if you have a reason for it, otherwise you ought to avoid it. Probably shouldn't do it just because you can.
 
Disclaimer: The following are just personal opinions based on my firm desire to fly until I'm old and grey - not rules, regs, or guidelines. It's late and after reading what I realize it's strongly stated. No offense meant, no need to get defensive, and not a 'my way is the only way' lecture. :)

jrh said:
Rediculously dangerous? Because you might run into another aircraft? The airspace is Class G for a reason...because there is nothing out there. I think the big sky theory would apply.

Also, by the last portion of your post, it sounds like you won't go IFR off-airway. Never GPS direct anywhere? As for obstacle clearance...if you're up at 13,000 or 14,000, you'd have to be in some very high terrain to violate the 2000 foot clearance rule.

Honestly, I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here...but I don't know if I'd call it "rediculously dangerous" either. To me it sounds like the kind of thing that is acceptable if you have a reason for it, otherwise you ought to avoid it. Probably shouldn't do it just because you can.

Rediculously dangerous (RD). Yup, in many cases. Nothing out there in G? :confused: Antenna farms, hills, mountains, water towers, other airplanes, and on and on. G isn't G because there's nothing out there. It's G because radar coverage is spotty. Why does G stop at 14500 MSL? Because the highest mountain in the lower 48 is 14493. Above that, there's no problem with radar shadow. But there is certainly stuff out there!

To do it the way it's been suggested here, it would be RD. First, the big sky theory sure as heck won't keep you safe forever. There may be another guy out there and you'd have no way to know until he was in your cockpit. Thats RD.

There was also the suggestion that you could go 'as low as you want' and do 'whatever you want in G'. Good luck. Unless you have GPS, you may not have nav coverage. No nav coverage in IMC is RD.

Obstacle and terrain clearance is also huge. Unless you're above the grid MORA/OROCA, you've got no assurances. Flying below that, especially in the G under a 1200 or 700 foot E shelf? Again, RD.

Not to mention that there are no approaches (that I know of) existing entirely in uncontrolled airspace. Following the suggested "Go lower until you break out" method mentioned earlier? RD.

Off-route and direct? All the time with a clearance in controlled airspace so I know there's nobody else lurking in the clouds waiting to tag me. Also above the grid altitudes for obstacle clearance and at altitudes that allow me to pick up a VOR if the GPS goes South. And in an area where I can grab an approach if I need to get down for any reason. However, enroute, at altitude, and when you know you can get to VFR or onto a clearance before descending below a safe altitude is one place that the risks might be acceptable.

Alaska? It sounds like it's SOP with known factors. I'm guessing they know the terrain, have some type of procedure to guarantee obstacle clearance, have an 'out' if they don't get on top, and make the departures away from the approach course. I'm also assuming it's used when you can see the sun through a thin layer of local fog and know you'll be out of it momentarily. That would mitigate risk to an acceptable level in some cases, for some pilots.

The situations and conditions where the risk is low enough to justify not doing it the conventional way are very few, very far between. Earlier, I was saying that, according to regs, it's possible. But I never endorsed it as a way to go for the average Joe in a situation where it's possible to do it another way. When it's the only way, when risks are known, accounted for, and reduced, it might be reasonable. But those situations are so few and far between that most of us will never be in one. I've done a lot of unusual flying in places where there's a lot of G to abnormally high altitudes and I have yet to find a situation where I personally saw need to use this particular trick.
 
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