IFR fuel reserves

I guess the question becomes: How do you know you will be in VFR or IFR conditions? Or maybe is it based on the information available during preflight? I think blizzue might be correct on the letter of the law. But how would it be applied in the real world?
 
So if I come within 499' of a cloud in Class E, C, or D airspace do I need 45 minutes of reserve just for the time I'm within 499' (since I'm now operating in "weather conditions" less than that required for VFR) or for the whole flight?

Do I need 30 or 45 minutes of reserve above FL180?

What about after I've descended back through FL180 on the way down? Can I go back to 30?

What if I'm VFR in class G airspace and fly through a cloud? How much do I need?

-mini
 
minitour said:
I don't have the authority to interpret anything and neither do you. So, until I read something from someone that does have that authority, I'll protect my certificates by putting the extra 15 minutes of gas in the tanks...even in beautiful day weather.

You can operate your aircraft however you choose. Just don't cry the blues if your interpretation isn't consistent with someone's that matters. I do hope that you're right, but until I see something from an official source, I'm not willing to put my tickets on the line over 15 minutes of gas. Sorry if that inconveniences you.

The problem I have is the wording in this interpretation. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...nterpretations/data/interps/2009/Negron-2.pdf

"The FAA requires that, for IFR operations, aircraft carry enough fuel to fly for an additional 45 minutes from an alternate airport "at normal cruising speed." § 91. I67(a)(3)."

The word "conditions" is not there (in that sentence...just IFR operations) either purely accidentally or because that's how the legal counsel interprets the regulation. (Bottom of page 1 into page 2). So, I need to know which it is. No offense, but your opinion on the matter won't keep me (or my students) from having to do a carpet dance.

-mini
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From that letter:
Your questions all address § 91. 167(a) which generally establishes
that when a pilot plans a flight in IFR conditions, he or she must carry enough fuel to: (1)
complete the flight to the intended destination; (2) fly from the intended destination to an
alternate airport; and (3) fly after that for 45 minutes at normal cruising speed.
Click to expand...

Why would they define it first, then change it later?
 
minitour said:
So if I come within 499' of a cloud in Class E, C, or D airspace do I need 45 minutes of reserve just for the time I'm within 499' (since I'm now operating in "weather conditions" less than that required for VFR) or for the whole flight?

Do I need 30 or 45 minutes of reserve above FL180?

What about after I've descended back through FL180 on the way down? Can I go back to 30?

What if I'm VFR in class G airspace and fly through a cloud? How much do I need?

-mini
Click to expand...

Dude. Have a beer, and take a break. You're taking this way too seriously.
 
bLizZuE said:
From that letter:


Why would they define it first, then change it later?
Click to expand...
You'd have to ask them. I don't have the authority to interpret regulations.

Do you have an opinion supporting your view that on an IFR flight plan in VMC, you only need 30 minutes?

bLizZuE said:
Dude. Have a beer, and take a break. You're taking this way too seriously.
Click to expand...

Is it "taking this way too seriously" when I get the pax to hop on the scale and do a weight and balance before firing up the engines? To me, a rule is a rule and I need to know exactly what it means to make sure I follow it. Not that I don't probably miss stuff (hell, I'm not perfect......ask my wife), but I can't (with clear conscience) blast off knowing I'm in violation. ...or at least knowing I don't know that I'm not violating a regulation.

I think those questions are fair questions that should be able to be answered by those taking your side of it.

Like I said, I hope you're right, because it would add some operational flexibility for us at times (sorta). That said, I need some clarification before I'd consider putting it to use.

-mini
 
I had to think about that for a minute.

I don't think I have an opinion. Other than my opinion is that the rule reads the way it does for a specific reason. Just like any other rule written in that god-forsaken book.

The specific rule states "IFR Conditions"
The rule book defines "IFR Conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules."

Now as to when you would use this in the real world. If I were planning on flying in the flight levels on a SKC day and wanted to save some weight, fuel, whatever. I could use this caveat. Now lets be honest with each other. 15 minutes isn't a big deal. However, why would they say "IFR Conditions" if they meant "IFR" or "IFR clearance" ?

I myself have never actually put this to use, however like you said, perhaps one day I can benefit from it. It's always nice to have some tricks up your sleeve.


So if I come within 499' of a cloud in Class E, C, or D airspace do I need 45 minutes of reserve just for the time I'm within 499' (since I'm now operating in "weather conditions" less than that required for VFR) or for the whole flight?

Do I need 30 or 45 minutes of reserve above FL180?

What about after I've descended back through FL180 on the way down? Can I go back to 30?

What if I'm VFR in class G airspace and fly through a cloud? How much do I need?
Click to expand...

1. I think that to put this to use, you would have to be able to complete the entire flight in VFR.

2. I don't know why FL180 would change this requirement. If I'm in VFR conditions, the 30 minute reserve would apply.

3. See 2.

4. How can you be VFR in class G while flying through a cloud? If you intend to fly in IFR conditions, the 45 minute rule clearly applies. If you intend to fly in VFR conditions the 30 minute rule applies.
 
bLizZuE said:
1. I think that to put this to use, you would have to be able to complete the entire flight in VFR.
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Fair enough. So you're going to have to tell ATC you need to climb/descend/turn to avoid that cloud. I could buy that.

2. I don't know why FL180 would change this requirement. If I'm in VFR conditions, the 30 minute reserve would apply.
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So what are "VFR conditions" in class A airspace? That would be a new one to me.

3. See 2.
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Likewise. :D

4. Disregard. We've beaten that horse to death and I'm way too tired to get into that right now. We'll just stick with the above for now. :)

-mini
 
minitour said:
So what are "VFR conditions" in class A airspace? That would be a new one to me.

-mini
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3-2-2. Class A Airspace
a. Definition. Generally, that airspace from 18,000 feet MSL up to and including FL 600, including the airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles of the coast of the 48 contiguous States and Alaska; and designated international airspace beyond 12 nautical miles of the coast of the 48 contiguous States and Alaska within areas of domestic radio navigational signal or ATC radar coverage, and within which domestic procedures are applied.
b. Operating Rules and Pilot/Equipment Requirements. Unless otherwise authorized, all persons must operate their aircraft under IFR. (See 14 CFR Section 71.33 and 14 CFR Section 91.167 through 14 CFR Section 91.193.)
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This points back to 91.167 as being required compliance. The circle continues. It mentions that you must operate 'under IFR' which only talks about flight plan.

Now I agree, and would also be hesitant to jump into the flight levels with 'VFR conditions' as a component of my fuel planning. That would be a carpet dance as you would say.
 
I just try to keep it easy. If filing IFR, I plan for a 30 min reserve, assuming no alrernate required. VFR, plan for a 20 min reserve. Just keeps it simple. I try not to stretch fuel too much or cut it tight enough to really have to worry to much about getting to where I'm up against these walls.
 
MikeD said:
I just try to keep it easy. If filing IFR, I plan for a 30 min reserve, assuming no alrernate required. VFR, plan for a 20 min reserve. Just keeps it simple. I try not to stretch fuel too much or cut it tight enough to really have to worry to much about getting to where I'm up against these walls.
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That's tight in my book...I personally want no less than 1 hr if at all possible.
 
minitour said:
Aside from being "Cleared into the class bravo" I can't think of any other time I've heard that I was "cleared" anywhere under VFR.

-mini
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You're cleared into the class Delta surface area from the west, maintain at or below 4000, report the field in sight.
 
Unless SOP's require otherwise, there are only two times you will ever have too much fuel. When your overweight or on fire. I don't ever plan on being either. If I land with an extra 2 hours of fuel, so be it. I'd rather "tanker" it around than run out.

As far as the OP, just figure it safe to assume that if your on an IFR flight plan, have 45mins left when you land at your alternate.
 
minitour said:
You only need two way radio communications to operate in class D airspace though.

-mini
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Somebody has constipation of the brain, or they haven't flown a little airplane in a long, long time. Think hard mini, when was the last time you were issued a "special" clearance into class D?
 
mshunter said:
Somebody has constipation of the brain, or they haven't flown a little airplane in a long, long time. Think hard mini, when was the last time you were issued a "special" clearance into class D?
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Misc-OhSnap_Bear.jpg


D'Oh!

-mini
 
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