azaviator08
New Member
I know a clock with a sweeping second hand or digital is required per 91.205 for IFR. But, does the clock have to be mounted in the airplane or does a watch suffice?
IFR Clock requirement
- Thread starter azaviator08
- Start date
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Posted before, but I'll post it again:
THOMAS C. RICHARDS,Administrator,
Federal Aviation Administration,
Complainant,
Docket SE-10306
v.
JOHN L. HAMMERSTRAND,
Respondent.Federal Aviation Administration,
Complainant,
Docket SE-10306
v.
JOHN L. HAMMERSTRAND,
2. Absence of an installed clock. The Administrator charged
that respondent operated the aircraft under IFR when he did not have the required clock installed in the instrument panel. The law judge agreed, rejecting respondent's arguments that a
passenger had a watch with the same required functions (hours,
minutes, and seconds), another instrument in the aircraft could substitute for the clock, and the weather was VFR.
On appeal, respondent repeats the last claim, noting
correctly that VFR operations do not require the clock.
Respondent continues to ignore, however, the fact that the
regulation requires the installed clock whenever IFR operations are conducted, and the record demonstrates that respondent obtained and used an IFR clearance when he left Gillespie Field.
Tr. at 35-36, 114.
that respondent operated the aircraft under IFR when he did not have the required clock installed in the instrument panel. The law judge agreed, rejecting respondent's arguments that a
passenger had a watch with the same required functions (hours,
minutes, and seconds), another instrument in the aircraft could substitute for the clock, and the weather was VFR.
On appeal, respondent repeats the last claim, noting
correctly that VFR operations do not require the clock.
Respondent continues to ignore, however, the fact that the
regulation requires the installed clock whenever IFR operations are conducted, and the record demonstrates that respondent obtained and used an IFR clearance when he left Gillespie Field.
Tr. at 35-36, 114.
6 Whether respondent actually needed such a
clearance is immaterial to the §§ 91.33(a) and 91.165 violations,as are the weather conditions at the time.7 Moreover, there is unrebutted evidence that the absence of the clock made the cases cited there (a violation of an operational FAR regulation is sufficient to support a finding of a "residual" or "derivative" § 91.9 violation).
It is not clear from the record whether the condition of the
TC violated § 91.33(a) as well. We need not decide this
question, as that violation is otherwise established. See ¶ 2,
infra.
clearance is immaterial to the §§ 91.33(a) and 91.165 violations,as are the weather conditions at the time.7 Moreover, there is unrebutted evidence that the absence of the clock made the cases cited there (a violation of an operational FAR regulation is sufficient to support a finding of a "residual" or "derivative" § 91.9 violation).
It is not clear from the record whether the condition of the
TC violated § 91.33(a) as well. We need not decide this
question, as that violation is otherwise established. See ¶ 2,
infra.
6
See also Tr. at 213-214. Respondent's testimony can be
read to admit this point but it is confusing and we do not rely on it.
read to admit this point but it is confusing and we do not rely on it.
7
See Administrator v. Ewing, 1 NTSB 1192, 1194 (1971) ("it is well settled that the Board does not have authority to pass on the reasonableness or validity of FAA regulations").
8 aircraft unairworthy in violation of § 91.29. Tr. at 51.8
8 aircraft unairworthy in violation of § 91.29. Tr. at 51.8
First, I agree and obviously as Blackhawk posted he agrees as well. However, in looking through the FARs I do not see any difinitive wording claiming that these instruments must be installed. What I am getting at is, why is a clock not allowed as your equipment, what wording accurately defines the necessity for that instrument.
As it is now, "...unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment..." The word "contain" to me means it must be inside the aircraft, but nothing says it has to be installed. Any thoughts on this or definitive answers?
On a side note about the GPS, I cannot see why it wouldn't be allowed, but we are talking about the FAA and a GPS is technically not a clock even though it contains one.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Legal precedent.
Now also understand that the lack of a clock in the airplane in the noted incident was just the icing on the cake. The pilot in question screwed up on so many levels. It also did not help his argument that the watch in question was on a passenger.
Personally, I don't see a problem with using the clock in the GPS. It is installed and has a digital readout of seconds. Of course the FAA is also logical, so I'm sure everyone there does not have a problem with it.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
well in the Avidyne Warriors and Seminole we have, there is no analog clock, only the clock on the MFD which gets its information from the Garmin 430
Adler
Low-Level Individual
Duh, I have ~100 hours in cirruses (yes that is the plural) , a vast amount getting my instrument rating, and I can't believe I did not think of that.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
cirrii?
Adler
Low-Level Individual
That's what I alway thought, but wikipedia differer http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cirrus , although it is wikipedia. Nonetheless, the thread must go on!
I stand corrected, thanks for that info. I was also just thinking you know we used stop watches as backup clocks and I am pretty sure I remember flying with my backup as my main clock. Hmm..
Planedriver28
Well-Known Member
My .02.....
I read the regs to say 'contained' also. They don't say anything about 'panel mount' or 'approved installation' like they say for an IFR approved GPS. (vs. a VFR/ handheld GPS.)
Most instrument rated pilot's I know have the timer that they got at Sporty's that clips right to the yoke. they use it all the time for IFR
I read the regs to say 'contained' also. They don't say anything about 'panel mount' or 'approved installation' like they say for an IFR approved GPS. (vs. a VFR/ handheld GPS.)
Most instrument rated pilot's I know have the timer that they got at Sporty's that clips right to the yoke. they use it all the time for IFR
Blip16
Well-Known Member
i have never used a seperate timer than what was in the a/c (clock, gps, ADF, etc)My .02.....
I read the regs to say 'contained' also. They don't say anything about 'panel mount' or 'approved installation' like they say for an IFR approved GPS. (vs. a VFR/ handheld GPS.)
Most instrument rated pilot's I know have the timer that they got at Sporty's that clips right to the yoke. they use it all the time for IFR
I was the same way at the college. Now we have I think 1 aircraft on the line at my current school that has a working clock and we won't even mention what else. Hence why I refuse to get my CFII and fly from there with it.
