IFR Clearance question

johnbail

johnbail

New Member
I have a question I have read the AIM and other publications but I guess being naturally dense dose not help my understanding.
When on an IFR plan and you receive a clearance to a fix and are instructed to wait for further clearance at that fix what do you do if you reach that fix and you have not received further clearance. Do you hold can you even legally hold at a fix in class b with out permission there? Do you proceed via your filed plan? I am not talking radio loss I mean the person is just to busy or forgot about you, or like where I fly you just can not get a word in edgewise?
 
I'd call the controller if I were approaching the fix and I didn't have a further clearence. Otherwise, and you gotta understand I'm streching my mind pretty hard here 'cause it's been a while since I studied for the instrument written, I beleive you're supposed to hold at the last clearence fix if you don't have a further clearence. If you loose your radio, continue on your last clearence, or if that's only to an intermediate fix, then you continue on your flight plan and plan to land at the perscribed time in your flight plan.

Someone tell me I'm wrong, 'cause I have a feeling I am.

Cheers


John Herreshoff
 
John is right. If you are approaching the fix and have not received a further clearance then call the controller. If no reply then you must hold as published, or on the airway (radial), using standard right turns. If you lose your radio then proceed with with loss comm procedures and proceed to your destination as filed. When at the IAF for your destination, depart the IAF so that you arrive at your destination as close as possible to your ETE.
 
I would offer a few qualifiers
If ATC gives you a clearance limit they must give you an EFC ... expect further clearance ... this can be expressed as a time or a route. Departing PRC the tower will clear you to the Drake VOR and tell you to expect further clearance from center. If ATC turns you for traffic they are suppose to issue a EFC like Expect on course in 10 miles or Expect on course in 3 min.

I remember something about 3 min. before a clearance limit if no further routing has been received you are to querry the controller, if not hold at the clearance limit untill you can fix the problem. Also the 3 min. mark is the point at which ATC expects you to slow down to holding speed.

The only qualifier to the lost commo procedure is IF you are VFR or enter VFR conditions Land short and advise ATC of your actions. Remember even in lost comm ATC has Radar and is watching everthing you do.
 
Also, from what I've heard, talking to several controllers, if you've lost communications and you're IFR, ATC would rather see you truck on to the airport, shoot an approach and land. THey can see you putting along out there and they'll assume you've lost communications and will clear the airspace for you. They would much prefer this than doing the "Hold until your ETA and then fly the approach" stuff. And personally, I would too if I lost communications.
 
[ QUOTE ]
THey can see you putting along out there and they'll assume you've lost communications and will clear the airspace for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pending you're not complete electrical tango uniform.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Pending you're not complete electrical tango uniform.

[/ QUOTE ] in which case I wouldn't worry about 91.185.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pending you're not complete electrical tango uniform.

[/ QUOTE ] in which case I wouldn't worry about 91.185.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor anything else.
 
I have 2 comments. The first is they can and will give you a clearance limit without an EFC. I get them all the time. Especially on GPS approaches. They will clear you direct to an IAF and not clear you for the approach. If this happens and I am getting close I will call and say ".....Approach NXXX is 2 minutes from (name of fix)" and will usually get approach clearance. If things get busy and I cannot contact them, I hold and notify ATC when able.

The second thing is this whole business about lost coms and just shooting the approach when you get to your destination regardless of when you arrive. Everyone always says "ATC can see you and just wants you to shoot the approach". This is not what the FARs say. 91.185 says that you should leave your clearance limit and start the approach "as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time enroute." If you guess wrong and the controller looks at your ETA and thinks that you are going to hold and he can sneak another few airplanes into an airport, you are going to be the one in trouble. You get no points for being 'considerate' and not making other people hold and burn fuel. It is your future on the line, so argue all you want, but if you do what the FARs say no one can say anything (and you cannot get violated). If they want you to just go right on in, they can easily amend the FARs.

That being said, you have several options. The first is to just slow down a bit if you see you are getting ahead of where you should be. The second is to amend your ETA if you have an unexpectedly large tailwind, then if you do loose coms, you won't be faced with this whole dilema. Last, how often do you get there that early anyway. The rule does not say to shoot the approach at exactly your ETA, it says 'as close as possible.' If I got there a few minutes early I would do the approach. If I am 10 minutes early, I will hold.

In a decent aircraft with 2 nav/coms I often wonder the chance of loosing both coms, but still being able to navigate, but your mileage will vary.
 
[ QUOTE ]

The second thing is this whole business about lost coms and just shooting the approach when you get to your destination regardless of when you arrive. Everyone always says "ATC can see you and just wants you to shoot the approach". This is not what the FARs say. 91.185 says that you should leave your clearance limit and start the approach "as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time enroute." If you guess wrong and the controller looks at your ETA and thinks that you are going to hold and he can sneak another few airplanes into an airport, you are going to be the one in trouble. You get no points for being 'considerate' and not making other people hold and burn fuel. It is your future on the line, so argue all you want, but if you do what the FARs say no one can say anything (and you cannot get violated). If they want you to just go right on in, they can easily amend the FARs.

That being said, you have several options. The first is to just slow down a bit if you see you are getting ahead of where you should be. The second is to amend your ETA if you have an unexpectedly large tailwind, then if you do loose coms, you won't be faced with this whole dilema. Last, how often do you get there that early anyway. The rule does not say to shoot the approach at exactly your ETA, it says 'as close as possible.' If I got there a few minutes early I would do the approach. If I am 10 minutes early, I will hold.

In a decent aircraft with 2 nav/coms I often wonder the chance of loosing both coms, but still being able to navigate, but your mileage will vary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put. Agree.
 
I think lost comm is a legit emergency and you could play the 91.3 card. Take whatever action is necessary to safely meet the emergency. For me, that would be to land ASAP.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think lost comm is a legit emergency and you could play the 91.3 card. Take whatever action is necessary to safely meet the emergency. For me, that would be to land ASAP.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe. It depends. The scenario we usually picture is a comm failure on the pilot's end. In which case I agree with you. My radios crapping out may be the earliest sign of a bigger problem, and I'm not terribly inclined to wait until one develops.

On the other hand, what if the outage is an ATC issue or simply temporary poor coverage? Do you want everyone just flying around heading for the nearest ILS? That would be a =real= emergency!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, what if the outage is an ATC issue or simply temporary poor coverage? Do you want everyone just flying around heading for the nearest ILS? That would be a =real= emergency!!

[/ QUOTE ]

They did in Die Hard 2!
laugh.gif
 
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