IFR clearance question

troopernflight

troopernflight

Well-Known Member
Say that I'm flying along VFR and the weather starts to deteriorate unexpectedly preventing me from getting to my destination under VFR. Would you recommend that I call up flight service to file an IFR plan in the air and then contact center for clearance, or is it better to explain your situation and request it directly from center?
 
I'd say try getting a clearance from the center first because it's the least number of steps (hopefully). If they have the time they'll type you in right there and clear you, altitude/traffic permitting. I'm sure you know this, but remember that ATC generated pop clearances don't contain your additional flight plan information, such as aircraft color, people on board, fuel, name and phone number etc. Filing with flight service first would allow you to store this information, but you'll still be at the mercy of the overlying ATC sector as to whether a pop-up clearance can be issued. I'm sure this depends largely on airspace, but we rarely deny pop up clearance requests where I work, though sometimes we may have to let them buzz along VFR for 5 minutes or so while traffic passes or we coordinate with adjacent facilities to allow you to receive a clearance.
 
FM_Weasel said:
I'd say try getting a clearance from the center first because it's the least number of steps (hopefully). If they have the time they'll type you in right there and clear you, altitude/traffic permitting. I'm sure you know this, but remember that ATC generated pop clearances don't contain your additional flight plan information, such as aircraft color, people on board, fuel, name and phone number etc. Filing with flight service first would allow you to store this information, but you'll still be at the mercy of the overlying ATC sector as to whether a pop-up clearance can be issued. I'm sure this depends largely on airspace, but we rarely deny pop up clearance requests where I work, though sometimes we may have to let them buzz along VFR for 5 minutes or so while traffic passes or we coordinate with adjacent facilities to allow you to receive a clearance.
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This.

At my current employment, the local approach control expects us to cancel on the way in to make the flow work out better, so, we usually do. The problem is that some days we have to cancel so far away from the airport, that the field might go IFR, or the weather enroute prevent us from being able to continue, so a couple times, I've had to say, "uhh, Portland, I'm going to be unable to maintain VFR present heading, I'm reversing course, and I'd like to get a popup." This typically results in something like, "Roger, XXX123, you're cleared to the Portland Airport via heading 180 climb and maintain 4,000, expect vectors for the ILS runway 28L." Pretty straight forward, get ahold of center, or approach, and if they can, they'll help you out as fast as they can.

If you're down really low, there's a decent chance they may not be able to get radar contact for awhile, hopefully you are able to maintain your own terrain separation through several thousand until they can get a hit.
 
troopernflight said:
Ok, makes sense. Thanks.
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I see your question has been answered, but I thought I'd add this from the AIM (Pilot/Controller Glossary) in case it helps, or you want a reference.

ABBREVIATED IFR FLIGHT PLANS- An authorization by ATC requiring pilots to submit only that information needed for the purpose of ATC. It includes only a small portion of the usual IFR flight plan information. In certain instances, this may be only aircraft identification, location, and pilot request. Other information may be requested if needed by ATC for separation/control purposes. It is frequently used by aircraft which are airborne and desire an instrument approach or by aircraft which are on the ground and desire a climb to VFR-on-top.
 
We generally have no problem issuing a "pop-up" IFR clearance. However, as mentioned before, it may take a little while before the clearance can be issued to due to coordination conflicting IFR traffic, etc. After the clearance has been issued we will ask for the flight plan info as if you were filing w/ flight service once we get a break some time. That way, it's all recorded somewhere in case something were to happen.
 
Never had approach or center turn me down when I have tried filing in the air for bad weather. Its one of those things... "60% of the time, it works everytime"
 
Add on question, since I didn't want to start a new thread. If I want to use a VFR only plane (DA20) and file an IFR flight plan, would this be a problem in good weather? I wanted to fly down to the beach and get some experience in the system. Would there be anything special I would have to arrange with ATC on this?
 
91.205 just states the required equipment needed for IFR flight..it doesn't specifically say that your aircraft must be IFR certified. From my brief time in the DA20 I think I remember it having all the IFR equipment and that the only reason it wasn't IFR certified was because it didn't have lightning protection. You can legally file IFR but you cannot fly into IMC so make sure you put something like "No IMC" in the remarks section. You might want to get an ATC opinion on this though as it might drive them crazy giving you vectors around a cloud! Just make sure you have all of the IFR inspections.

Hope that helps!
 
I would call the ATC facility and get the popup clearance first. Then you can continue towards your destination rather than maneuvering to maintain VFR conditions. Also, if there is any adverse weather, pilot reports, flow programs, or NOTAMS, the controller will tell you right away. After I accept the popup IFR, I tell the pilot to go to FSS to file the remainder of their IFR clearance information and report back up on my frequency.

Do not file IFR in an aircraft that is not certified for it. By requesting an IFR clearance, you are stating that you are qualified to operate that aircraft in IMC and that the aircraft is equipped and certified as well. My radar does not show clouds, only precipitation, so I cannot vector you around clouds. If you are going to operate in the national airspace system as an IFR flight, both you and the aircraft must be able to do so.
 
Jed1087 said:
91.205 just states the required equipment needed for IFR flight..it doesn't specifically say that your aircraft must be IFR certified. From my brief time in the DA20 I think I remember it having all the IFR equipment and that the only reason it wasn't IFR certified was because it didn't have lightning protection. You can legally file IFR but you cannot fly into IMC so make sure you put something like "No IMC" in the remarks section. You might want to get an ATC opinion on this though as it might drive them crazy giving you vectors around a cloud! Just make sure you have all of the IFR inspections.

Hope that helps!
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Good luck with that "no IMC" thing. One of the first things you'll get as a vfr experiencing difficulty maintaining VFR is "verify you are CAPABLE of and qualified for IFR flight"
 
McNevin said:
I would call the ATC facility and get the popup clearance first. Then you can continue towards your destination rather than maneuvering to maintain VFR conditions. Also, if there is any adverse weather, pilot reports, flow programs, or NOTAMS, the controller will tell you right away. After I accept the popup IFR, I tell the pilot to go to FSS to file the remainder of their IFR clearance information and report back up on my frequency.

Do not file IFR in an aircraft that is not certified for it. By requesting an IFR clearance, you are stating that you are qualified to operate that aircraft in IMC and that the aircraft is equipped and certified as well. My radar does not show clouds, only precipitation, so I cannot vector you around clouds. If you are going to operate in the national airspace system as an IFR flight, both you and the aircraft must be able to do so.
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Certified and capable are two entirely different things though. If I was in rapidly deteriorating weather and I was current, you better believe I would file even if the FAA had not given its express blessing that the aircraft was IFR "certified". To be capable of IFR flight equipment wise, the aircraft only need meet the requirements of Part 91.

Putting the controller hat back on, I personally wouldn't want to take the liability upon myself of denying someone an IFR clearance in a situation that could potentially become an emergency because I knew the aircraft wasn't IFR certified.
 
tk727 said:
The controller wouldn't know whether the airplane was legal for IFR flight or not.
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Some of us are pilots and may know that a certain aircraft isn't technically certified, but are capable for IFR flight, such as the DA20 mentioned above.
 
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