IFR Clearance in the air

Sidious

Sidious

Well-Known Member
Something that I've been curious about.

I'll do a 2 leg IFR training flight with a student and on the second leg we will get our clearance in the air. Sometimes that clearance doesn't happen until we are going missed or after the missed. Am I still afforded IFR separation and expected to potentially fly in clouds when I am "in between" clearances?

I assume yes but we all know what happens with assumptions.

Thanks
 
Sidious said:
Something that I've been curious about.

I'll do a 2 leg IFR training flight with a student and on the second leg we will get our clearance in the air. Sometimes that clearance doesn't happen until we are going missed or after the missed. Am I still afforded IFR separation and expected to potentially fly in clouds when I am "in between" clearances?

I assume yes but we all know what happens with assumptions.

Thanks
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As long as you don't cancel IFR on the first clearance prior to receiving the second clearance.


I you are planning on ending the first leg with a missed approach, you would execute the published missed approach and hold in the absence on any instruction to due otherwise. If you land (you need to cancel your first leg in this case)then want to pickup the clearance afterwards then in order to receive separation you need to pick up the clearance on the ground and get released.
 
Just out of curiosity, I assume you are flying back to your airport of origin so wouldn't it be easier to file a round-robin?
 
CFIscare said:
Just out of curiosity, I assume you are flying back to your airport of origin so wouldn't it be easier to file a round-robin?
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It would, but I think the value of copying a clearance while under the hood helps the student develop the ability to multi task even more.

Just my style I guess.
 
Sidious said:
It would, but I think the value of copying a clearance while under the hood helps the student develop the ability to multi task even more.

Just my style I guess.
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ha! Reminds me of when I had a student pick up a clearance while airborne. ATC said something like "The weather's good out there, right?! Why are you filing from the air?!"

"Uh, trying to facilitate learning in the cockpit, ma'am. It just sounds like he knows what he's doing."
 
Yes, you should be given IFR separation. It you are filed IFR on the first leg & execute an instrument approach the controller has to protect for the missed approach which would give you IFR separation. This separation is guaranteed throughout the missed procedure. You should be given a new clearance limit & probably a squawk code & you're still IFR. If VFR & doing an approach you are given IFR sep from the moment you are cleared for the approach, with the exception of 500ft vertical instead of 1,000ft. However, unless you are authorized to execute the missed approach the IFR sep stops at the airport.
 
tk727 said:
Yes, you should be given IFR separation. It you are filed IFR on the first leg & execute an instrument approach the controller has to protect for the missed approach which would give you IFR separation. This separation is guaranteed throughout the missed procedure. You should be given a new clearance limit & probably a squawk code & you're still IFR.
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If you are IFR and you go missed, you are only allowed the published missed approach (or alternate missed approach if issued by the controller). You can't arbitrarily start a turn "as filed" on your 2nd leg without being cleared for it. Seems simple.

I've had an aircraft doing the exact thing the OP is asking. The published missed approach was "heading 090, climbing to 4000, ...blah blah". The standard IFR climbout at this airport was also "heading 090, climbing to 4000, ...blah blah". I tell the pilot to let me know when he's ready to copy his 2nd leg IFR clearance. He tells me he'll copy it on the go from his IFR approach.

His filed route was a westerly heading, so he flew west on the missed and said he was ready to copy his clearance. I asked him why he was turning west? He said he assumed I was going to clear him "as filed" so he was getting a jump on it so he could copy the clearance while already navigating on course. WAY WRONG. I never had a problem with it before...especially since the Phoenix class B engulfed our class D.

tk727 said:
If VFR & doing an approach you are given IFR sep from the moment you are cleared for the approach, with the exception of 500ft vertical instead of 1,000ft. However, unless you are authorized to execute the missed approach the IFR sep stops at the airport.
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Your either talking about class B airspace, a Letter of Agreement between an ATC facility and a flight school, or just a common controller practice.

If your VFR doing practice approaches there is no IFR separation requirement. I'll do my best to give you IFR wake turbulence separation when possible, but it's not a requirement. If IFR wake turbulence separation is 4 miles and i only have 3 1/2, then that's all your getting.

Again...there is no requirement to provide IFR separation to VFR practice approaches. This is assuming your outside of class B airspace. IF within class B airspace then you would be correct in stating that there is some sort of separation. That separation would be 1 1/2 miles or 500 feet. I would still try my best to provide you wake turbulence separation...as much as possible.

p.s. ATC phraseology for approving a VFR practice approach is:
PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED, MAINTAIN VFR, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED
 
Juliet Lima said:
Your either talking about class B airspace, a Letter of Agreement between an ATC facility and a flight school, or just a common controller practice.

If your VFR doing practice approaches there is no IFR separation requirement. I'll do my best to give you IFR wake turbulence separation when possible, but it's not a requirement. If IFR wake turbulence separation is 4 miles and i only have 3 1/2, then that's all your getting.

Again...there is no requirement to provide IFR separation to VFR practice approaches. This is assuming your outside of class B airspace. IF within class B airspace then you would be correct in stating that there is some sort of separation. That separation would be 1 1/2 miles or 500 feet. I would still try my best to provide you wake turbulence separation...as much as possible.

p.s. ATC phraseology for approving a VFR practice approach is:
PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED, MAINTAIN VFR, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED
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Wait a second man.

7210.3V
10-4-5. PRACTICE INSTRUMENT​

APPROACHES


a.
VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches at the approach control's primary airport shall be provided IFR separation in accordance with FAAO JO7110.65, Air Traffic Control, Chapter 4, Section 8, Approach Clearance Procedures.
​
​
NOTE:​

​

The primary airport is the airport from which approach​

control service is provided, except for remoted facilities
where the facility air traffic manager will designate the
primary report.
​
​
b. ​

​

IFR separation to VFR aircraft in accordance with FAAO JO 7110.65, Chapter 4, Section 8, Approach Clearance Procedures, shall be provided to all secondary airports under the approach control's jurisdiction to the extent possible within existing resources. Where separation service is provided to an airport with an AFSS/FSS that provides LAA, or a nonapproach control tower, provisions for handling such aircraft, including aircraft being provided DF service, shall be included in a LOA.​
​
​
​

​
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​
​
​
​

​
 
What that says JL you have to provide IFR separation if you can to secondary airports and you MUST provide it to the primary airport to all VFR aircraft conducting practice instrument approaches.
 
:yeahthat:

However the principle of 'What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas' could possibly supersede the FAA directives.
:D
 
This isn't totally related but here's some advice: 'If you're going to get your IFR clearance in the air, don't travel through an overcast layer to get in radio contact. And if you DO travel through an overcast layer to get in radio contact don't report it on the radio that the ceilings were at X feet (while you are currently at Y feet, above.).'

(One of our pilots did this)
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
This isn't totally related but here's some advice: 'If you're going to get your IFR clearance in the air, don't travel through an overcast layer to get in radio contact. And if you DO travel through an overcast layer to get in radio contact don't report it on the radio that the ceilings were at X feet (while you are currently at Y feet, above.).'

(One of our pilots did this)
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On this note here is a couple tips:

Controller asks you to say/confirm your altitude/assigned altitude, causing you to realize you've accidentally drifted 300 ft too high/low:
Bad Answer: "Oops we're indicating 7300 we'll go back down to 7000"
Good Answer: 7000 what did you say the altimeter is?.....Oh let me recycle it" (We know you're full of it but at least your not admitting a pilot deviation)

Your in an area requiring transponder/mode c, controller says "verify your transponder is turned on"
Bad Answer: Oops! here I'll turn it on.
Good Answer: It's indicating green let me recycle it(turn it on wink wink)



I have heard all of these multiple times.
 
boondr said:
Your in an area requiring transponder/mode c, controller says "verify your transponder is turned on"
Bad Answer: Oops! here I'll turn it on.
Good Answer: It's indicating green let me recycle it(turn it on wink wink)
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Hahaha, yep...
 
dasleben said:
Hahaha, yep...
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Had one I gave "verify transponder is turned on"

He say " OH! Oh yeah here you go, hows that?"

I replied "Appears you have an intermittent transponder, you should get that checked out when you get on the ground"

He says "Actually I forgot...uh...ok I get it I'll stop talking now"

Me "Good idea"
 
boondr said:
Had one I gave "verify transponder is turned on"

He say " OH! Oh yeah here you go, hows that?"

I replied "Appears you have an intermittent transponder, you should get that checked out when you get on the ground"

He says "Actually I forgot...uh...ok I get it I'll stop talking now"

Me "Good idea"
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Probably a no-no to depart with it off in the SFRA, right?

My favorite so far was the dual transponder failure I had going into BWI one day. Both of them failed at once due to a bad power supply. Trying to explain that one over the radio was fun. Your comrades almost made me turn around.
 
We don't even turn ours off. Problem solved.

We do forget to set the right numbers in there sometimes.

"Hmm...I'll try the other one!" :bandit:

-mini
 
dasleben said:
Probably a no-no to depart with it off in the SFRA, right?

My favorite so far was the dual transponder failure I had going into BWI one day. Both of them failed at once due to a bad power supply. Trying to explain that one over the radio was fun. Your comrades almost made me turn around.
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Yeah big no-no but no transponder>1200 because at least no transponder can be explained by bad Radar(It's ALWAYS this in my case unless the pilot sells him/herself out).

Believe me it wasn't my comrades who would have made you turn around it was NCRCC they are the worst version of paranoid big brother you can imagine and are probably reading this.
 
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