IFR checklists

Ralgha said:
Where did I say that using the LOC antenna should be your first option? Nowhere. I said, "if all else fails," meaning that you forgot to start the time, the DME doesn't work, and your markers weren't turned on. If you have another way to bail yourself out besides a pure guess, I'm all ears. Regardless of the circumstances, you should start a climb as soon as you decide you're not going to complete the approach.
Click to expand...

I understand that, and I guess it makes sense, except I have the same question as Holding Short does. What exactly happens at LOC crossing? Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't seem to remember if anything actually happens when you cross the LOC. I'm legitimately asking a question, because I'm curious.

I guess, though, the times should be used in all cases that one is provided, even if shooting an ILS because I'd rather rely on that than have to "save my ass" off of the LOC crossing. I was always taught to time the ILS if there is a time given, even if the GS is operative. If for some far-out reason the GS failed when I'm halfway down the ILS, the times would be a good backup if there were no DME or MM. Kinda like programming the LOC into NAV2 in case the unlikely event of NAV1 failing. Just more redundancy.
 
Ralgha said:
I'm talking flying an ILS here. If you're flying a LOC, then time might be required, it depends on the approach. If you're flying an ILS, time is not required, and, as I said previously, using the LOC antenna to start a missed procedure is a last ditch "save your ass" technique.
Click to expand...
I hear you ,man. What will you do when the miss is a... lets say 0.9 from the threashold? I'm curious, what happens when you do fly over the LOC.
I wouldn't think there would be anything different on my panel.

HS
 
Holding Short said:
I hear you ,man. What will you do when the miss is a... lets say 0.9 from the threashold? I'm curious, what happens when you do fly over the LOC.
I wouldn't think there would be anything different on my panel.

HS
Click to expand...

Are you talking about losing the glideslope on an ILS? In my current airplane? If there were DME, then I'd use that, cause if I've got the ILS tuned in, then the DME follows automatically. If no DME, then I'd use the MM, since it's always on. If not that, then when the FMS said I was over the runway threshold, since I put that in when I shoot an approach for real. If for some reason that didn't work, then my only other option would be to wait till I cross the LOC antenna, since there would be no other way for me to know where I was. So there are three really good options before having to resort to crossing the antenna.
 
What's wrong with going missed early? Better that then plastered on the side of a mountain because you started your missed 2 miles late...
 
Chris_Ford said:
What's wrong with going missed early? Better that then plastered on the side of a mountain because you started your missed 2 miles late...
Click to expand...

Well, if you go missed too early, it may adversely affect the point of the missed approach procedure, especially if the missed approach hold is the LOM which is the case many times. Or if the outbound from the MAP is a radial or something and you initiate the missed too early, you still may need to know when to turn otherwise you may be just guessing where you're supposed to go.
 
Chris_Ford said:
What's wrong with going missed early? Better that then plastered on the side of a mountain because you started your missed 2 miles late...
Click to expand...

Depends on the approach. It could be just as bad to turn early as it would be to turn late. In some cases, terrain will be to the side of the inbound course. If you turn before the MAP, you'd fly into the terrain.
 
As I understand it, terrain is assured(laterally) from the MAP, if you follow the procedure. You shouldn't start any turns prior to MAP. You can climb early all you want, but you shouldn't start any turns before reaching the MAP. Hence, the timing to know when you have reached the MAP.

Same thing if you loose the runway in a circle to land. Turn towards the field(MAP), then when you think you are at MAP or past it, you can then do the procedure(Turns).

HS
 
Ralgha said:
Are you talking about losing the glideslope on an ILS? In my current airplane? If there were DME, then I'd use that, cause if I've got the ILS tuned in, then the DME follows automatically. If no DME, then I'd use the MM, since it's always on. If not that, then when the FMS said I was over the runway threshold, since I put that in when I shoot an approach for real. If for some reason that didn't work, then my only other option would be to wait till I cross the LOC antenna, since there would be no other way for me to know where I was. So there are three really good options before having to resort to crossing the antenna.
Click to expand...

Yeah Okay,... I was talking about flying an ILS, loosing the G/S and then starting the first part of the miss. Which is the climb. No DME,no MM,no GPS, no hand held, no nothin'.

HS
 
Holding Short said:
Yeah Okay,... I was talking about flying an ILS, loosing the G/S and then starting the first part of the miss. Which is the climb. No DME,no MM,no GPS, no hand held, no nothin'.

HS
Click to expand...

You can, and should, start the climb as soon as you know you're going to abort the approoach. Doesn't matter where you are.
 
As far as an IFR checklist, we used W.I.R.E.

Weather: ATIS, etc....
Instrument: altimeter setting, set DG, course, etc...
Radios: Marker beacon, Comm & Navs, etc...
Enroute: Brief the approach;Brief the miss, etc...

HS
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
I don't teach any mnemonic for the approach briefing. I think they (along with most mnemonics) are worthless.

Jeppesen spent years and megabucks developing the "Briefing Strip" based on how professional pilots briefed the approach. It was so good, NACO almost immediately stole it. Why replace that with a mnemonic that will take more time to remember what it stands for than to apply?
Click to expand...


The briefing strip does not flow well for me. I like to brief the approach in the order I would fly it.

I have to skip the missed approach procedure...brief how I will align with final (RVs or PT), jump down to the lighting and VGSI indications and visibility requirements...then jump back up to the missed approach procedure and MSA's for terrain awareness.

I wish they would have put the missed approach procedure back down towards the bottom of the chart.

But I'm sure the rationale is that when a guy goes missed he can look down and see the procedure readily at the top of the chart. My opinion is that you should be looking at your gages and not at your chart when initially flying the MAP.
 
Kingairer said:
I like using TOMATO FLAMES for my IFR approaches.
Click to expand...

I only know that acronym as a method to remember some of the required equipment for day VFR flight. How are you using it for an approach?
 
Ralgha said:
Are you talking about losing the glideslope on an ILS? In my current airplane? If there were DME, then I'd use that, cause if I've got the ILS tuned in, then the DME follows automatically. If no DME, then I'd use the MM, since it's always on. If not that, then when the FMS said I was over the runway threshold, since I put that in when I shoot an approach for real. If for some reason that didn't work, then my only other option would be to wait till I cross the LOC antenna, since there would be no other way for me to know where I was. So there are three really good options before having to resort to crossing the antenna.
Click to expand...

Okay, I've been away for a while, and sorry to keep bringing this up. If there is DME available there usually won't be a time published anyway if it is an ILS DME approach. The thing that's confusing me though, is what are you saying is supposed to happen on the NAV instrument to indicate you've crossed the LOC? I don't believe anything happens unless you just all of the sudden know you're now reverse sensing.
 
Ralgha
What in the world is "LOC antenna crossing"?

All the localizers I'm familar with provide no information that would allow you to tell when you pass over them. Are you talking about when the localizer starts displaying reverse sensing? Please explain what you mean or how you were trained on how to tell when you cross over the LOC antenna.
 
Kingairer said:
I like using TOMATO FLAMES for my IFR approaches.
Click to expand...

I concur. I use TOMATO FLAMES as a memory device to remind me to use the briefing strip cause otherwise I'll end up looking like a splattered tomato on fire.
 
PanJet said:
Okay, I've been away for a while, and sorry to keep bringing this up. If there is DME available there usually won't be a time published anyway if it is an ILS DME approach. The thing that's confusing me though, is what are you saying is supposed to happen on the NAV instrument to indicate you've crossed the LOC? I don't believe anything happens unless you just all of the sudden know you're now reverse sensing.
Click to expand...
Maybe , he's thinking that there will be a To/From flip, which there won't be. It's not a VOR.
 
Holding Short said:
Maybe , he's thinking that there will be a To/From flip, which there won't be. It's not a VOR.
Click to expand...

It's going to go full deflection and you're going to lose the signal.

A localizer will not start reverse sensing just by flying over it.
 
PanJet said:
If there is DME available there usually won't be a time published anyway if it is an ILS DME approach.
Click to expand...

A few examples of ILS approaches that have DME and time:

KCIC ILS 13L
KEUG ILS 16R
KLAX ILS 25L
KSFO ILS 28R


And there are many, many more.

What's up with everyone trying to prove me wrong? I only said that time is not required on an ILS approach, which it's not, and provided a few ways of figuring out when you could start your missed procedure (besides the climb). They all work, some are better than others, none of them should be used in normal operations (including time), and I never said they should. Losing the glideslope on an ILS is not normal.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top