IFR checklists
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MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I don't teach any mnemonic for the approach briefing. I think they (along with most mnemonics) are worthless.
Jeppesen spent years and megabucks developing the "Briefing Strip" based on how professional pilots briefed the approach. It was so good, NACO almost immediately stole it. Why replace that with a mnemonic that will take more time to remember what it stands for than to apply?
Jeppesen spent years and megabucks developing the "Briefing Strip" based on how professional pilots briefed the approach. It was so good, NACO almost immediately stole it. Why replace that with a mnemonic that will take more time to remember what it stands for than to apply?
jrh
Well-Known Member
MidlifeFlyer said:
:yeahthat:
I just teach people to step their way through the briefing strip, right to left and top to bottom, setting up their radios and bugs accordingly.
On a full procedure approach, I like to use the 3M acronym when outbound on the procedure turn or on the final vector when being vectored...Missed approach instructions, Minutes from FAF to MAP in case of a glide slope failure, and Minimum altitudes. I think it's important to have those three pieces of information fresh in your head before turning inbound. That's about the only acronym I use though.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
I don't care much for Jepp's cute little briefing strip. I mean, it's very cute, and it puts all of the information in one place. That being said, I teach an approach briefing, as follows (Taken from this thread):
A - AWOS/ATIS : Get the information.
M - Marker Beacons/Mag Compass (align).
I - Identify EVERYTHING that you may need (including GPS setup).
C - Course inbound on the final approach.
E - Entry (Straight-in, procedure turn, DME arc, vectors to final, etc).
A - Altitudes (as per the profile view).
T - Time (if applicable).
M - Missed Approach - at least the initial climb and turn(s).
It doesn't spell much except A-Mice-ATM. However, it's catchy and flows off the tongue!!!
This is one of the few "ditties" that I teach, and it's one of the VERY FEW that I actually still use today in my professional life. It leaves very little to guessing, while eliminating the need for a checklist for every little thing you do (Checklists are NOT "to-do" lists).
A - AWOS/ATIS : Get the information.
M - Marker Beacons/Mag Compass (align).
I - Identify EVERYTHING that you may need (including GPS setup).
C - Course inbound on the final approach.
E - Entry (Straight-in, procedure turn, DME arc, vectors to final, etc).
A - Altitudes (as per the profile view).
T - Time (if applicable).
M - Missed Approach - at least the initial climb and turn(s).
It doesn't spell much except A-Mice-ATM. However, it's catchy and flows off the tongue!!!
This is one of the few "ditties" that I teach, and it's one of the VERY FEW that I actually still use today in my professional life. It leaves very little to guessing, while eliminating the need for a checklist for every little thing you do (Checklists are NOT "to-do" lists).
jrh
Well-Known Member
Ralgha said:
Wow, good point. I rarely fly with DME, but I'd never thought of using the MM or LOC antenna. I can't believe I'd never been taught that or thought of it myself until now.
This makes me wonder now...why do they print the time on ILS plates? Is it strictly for cross-checking?
PanJet
Well-Known Member
Ralgha said:
Some airports don't have DME and MM's are slowly being disabled meaning some ILS's don't have them any more. And wouldn't an LOC antenna crossing put you at the far end of the runway far past the MAP? Maybe it's just because I'm tired, but does an LOC antenna crossing actually registure any change on the instrument like a VOR crossing does?
jrh
Well-Known Member
Dugie8 said:
I know, I'm not going to quit reviewing the time. As you mentioned, there are numerous nonprecision approaches where time is the only means of knowing when to go missed, or even on an ILS, it's one more piece of situational awareness.
But the question still stands, why do they print a time on the ILS plates if the MAP can be determined by crossing the MM? They must expect pilots to use the time for something, but I don't know what. Is it supposed to be a primary means of navigation or just a backup for other methods, such as crossing the MM?
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
jrh said:
Keep in mind the "footprint" that the MM creates. It is not exact, and neither is timing, but for the sake of appearances time will be printed.
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0604/05187I35L.PDF Can be done, without ADF or DME, since radar can call out HISER, so you need a way to ID the MAP that is 5.6NM from HISER. Also not from the profile view that the MAP for the LOC approach is slightly past the MM, so if you were to use the MM beeping as your MAP you might end up turning too soon (not a big deal in ND, but you get the idea).
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0604/00226ILD17R.PDF, Notice DME is required and no times are printed in the timing boxes.
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
Dugie8 said:
No matter how big the MM footprint, it's going to be more accurate than time is 95% of the time.
Mostly I just threw those options out there to use in the rare case that you lose the GS while on an ILS. If I'm cruising down the ILS with a timed MAP at the MM and 2:00, and I started the time at the appropriate place, when the MM goes off and the time is at 1:30, I'm starting the missed.
They put the time on there because you can do a LOC approach too, in which case you might need time to identify the MAP. If you're doing the ILS, you're going to hit the DA prior to the LOC MAP. Are you going to wait till you hit the LOC MAP to start the missed? No! You start the missed based on which approach you're flying. ILS, you start it at the DA. LOC, you start it at the MAP. Stop blending approaches together.
The trick is to figure out when to start the missed if you lose the glideslope (not common). Some creativity is needed here. Using your provided plate for ILS 35L at Grand Forks, you could use time to identify the LOC MAP at 2:48 say. Or you could use DME to identify the DA location at 2.0, or DME to identify the LOC MAP of 1.4. Or you could use the MM to give a damn close approximation of the DA. If all else fails, you can start when you cross the LOC antenna, which is about 1.4 miles down the road from the LOC MAP. Doesn't matter if these are "official" ways to identify it, "official" went out the window when you lost your glideslope on the ILS.
PanJet
Well-Known Member
The LOC antenna is at the far end of the runway. On a 10,000 ft. runway that would add almost 2 miles to your MAP; two miles in which you are supposed to be climbing up for the missed. Now maybe in GFK where there isn't anything taller than a cow, that's fine, but I'll give you an example. There are probably much better examples, but the one that comes to mind (because I've shot it before in LIFR and had to go missed) is the ILS 05 in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho (COE). When you go in there you're aimed right at some fairly large hills in almost all directions. If you were to wait until the LOC crossing to start climing, you'd not only be a lot lower, but you'd be a good 1.5-2 miles past where you wanna be and closer to some big hills. Most planes can be up to turning altitude on the missed before they even get to the LOC antenna.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but using the LOC antenna seems a bit scary to me, I'd much rather rely on times at that point. Even if it put me only half a mile closer to the MAP, that's half a mile I'd rather have.
edit: quote erased do to earlier statement edit
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but using the LOC antenna seems a bit scary to me, I'd much rather rely on times at that point. Even if it put me only half a mile closer to the MAP, that's half a mile I'd rather have.
edit: quote erased do to earlier statement edit
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
PanJet said:
Where did I say that using the LOC antenna should be your first option? Nowhere. I said, "if all else fails," meaning that you forgot to start the time, the DME doesn't work, and your markers weren't turned on. If you have another way to bail yourself out besides a pure guess, I'm all ears. Regardless of the circumstances, you should start a climb as soon as you decide you're not going to complete the approach.
Holding Short
Well-Known Member
What if you have no DME; the MM is INOP and what exactly happens at LOC crossing? What if the MAP is before the "LOC crossing" ? Time would be the only way to not start the turn early on the missed(if a turn is called for).Ralgha said:
HS
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
Holding Short said:
I'm talking flying an ILS here. If you're flying a LOC, then time might be required, it depends on the approach. If you're flying an ILS, time is not required, and, as I said previously, using the LOC antenna to start a missed procedure is a last ditch "save your ass" technique.