IFR at Uncontrolled Airport

bc2209

bc2209

Well-Known Member
Will ATC clear you for an approach at an non-towered/uncontrolled airport or do they just get you to the initial approach fix and let you have at it?

Also, if they do clear you for an approach, do they assign a specific approach? (say there are 3 approaches available)

I had this come up the other day (i'm a new CFI-I). We filed and kept getting closer and closer to the initial approach fix and they weren't saying anything at all. So when I did prompt them they basically said, would you like to cancel IFR?

I did end up canceling IFR as it just made things easier and safer as I was about to enter the "stack". The weather was still VFR but slowly deteriorating lower and lower.

Towered airports are simple and easy as they always either assign me the visual or a specific approach. Just wondering if the same goes on for non towered airports on an IFR flight plan.

Thanks!
 
bc2209 said:
Will ATC clear you for an approach at an non-towered/uncontrolled airport or do they just get you to the initial approach fix and let you have at it?

Also, if they do clear you for an approach, do they assign a specific approach? (say there are 3 approaches available)

I had this come up the other day (i'm a new CFI-I). We filed and kept getting closer and closer to the initial approach fix and they weren't saying anything at all. So when I did prompt them they basically said, would you like to cancel IFR?

I did end up canceling IFR as it just made things easier and safer as I was about to enter the "stack". The weather was still VFR but slowly deteriorating lower and lower.

Towered airports are simple and easy as they always either assign me the visual or a specific approach. Just wondering if the same goes on for non towered airports on an IFR flight plan.

Thanks!
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Ah, the stack. I've gone in there several times IFR. They should clear you for the approach first. If someone is IFR in front of you, they'll hold you in the stack until the other flight cancels their flight plan.
 
Either ATC will advise you which approach to expect, or just as typically ask you which approach you would like. I have only been told once that we had been cleared for approach without a specific approach having been assigned to us. When one is selected, ATC will provide vectors about 3 - 5 miles from the FAF and 30° to the final approach course, at whatever the minimum vectoring altitude is, often to an intermediate fix just prior to the FAF. Of course that is assuming a radar environment available. In a no-radar area they clear you to the IAF of whatever approach you had chosen, with an advisement to report turning inbound on a procedure turn before they indeed clear you. Sometimes they will clear you right away before you have reached the IAF.
 
If ATC doesn't ask you what approach you'd like and the weather if VFR, we're probably expecting you to just take the visual approach, or just waiting for you to get below any cloud layer so you can cancel IFR. If you do want an instrument approach, ask for one and specify that you would either like vectors or your own nav via some fix. We'll clear you for the approach when we can, ask you to cancel IFR in the air on the approach frequency, on the ground with a clearance frequency if there is one (or even the approach frequency if there's reception,) or a telephone number to the facility.

Even at towered airports, you can ask for any approach you want. Really no different except we won't be asking for your IFR cancellation.
 
VMC, I've been cleared for "the approach" a ways out, even though I filed/operating IFR. Also asked to cancel IFR prior. Probably due to workload and that we were a known training flight. (easily recognizable callsign in the region). You'll learn about cancel at the gate guy in this environment, and you will learn to hate them. :)

IMC, one in, one out. You will have to wait. Even then, I've been cleared for "the approach" at smaller uncontrolled airports.

They should be clearing you for something at some point prior to leaving the airways/feeder routes though.
 
bc2209 said:
Will ATC clear you for an approach at an non-towered/uncontrolled airport or do they just get you to the initial approach fix and let you have at it?
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You are cleared all the way to MDA/DH and the missed approach is necessary. At the FAF you're usually given a frequency change to advisory frequency but you're still being separated from other IFR aircraft by ATC.

bc2209 said:
Also, if they do clear you for an approach, do they assign a specific approach? (say there are 3 approaches available)
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Often given a choice of which one you want to shoot but you'll be assigned a specific approach and you must fly that approach/missed approach since you're being separated.

bc2209 said:
I had this come up the other day (i'm a new CFI-I). We filed and kept getting closer and closer to the initial approach fix and they weren't saying anything at all. So when I did prompt them they basically said, would you like to cancel IFR?
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I assume ATC was wondering why you were asking.

bc2209 said:
I did end up canceling IFR as it just made things easier and safer as I was about to enter the "stack". The weather was still VFR but slowly deteriorating lower and lower.
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Just make sure you are legal (cloud clearance and visibility) when you cancel. Some cancel as soon as they break out, that isn't legal and some have been violated by an over zealous FAA inspector for that.

bc2209 said:
Towered airports are simple and easy as they always either assign me the visual or a specific approach. Just wondering if the same goes on for non towered airports on an IFR flight plan.
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So what's different at an uncontrolled airport?

Arriving: It's one in or one out at a time. You must cancel or report landed to ATC before anyone else can land or depart IFR. It's pretty embarrassing when the local sheriff walks into the cafe looking for the pilot of N12345 and there you are eating your eggs. Meanwhile there are 6 other aircraft in a holding pattern waiting for you to report on the ground and 3 others waiting to depart.

Not uncommon for more than one airport being shut down to IFR operations (even a neighboring controlled airport) until you report on the ground because the missed approach has to be protected.

Departing: You must have a clearance AND a release before you can depart IFR. Again one in or one out at a time. Don't ask for a release until you're ready to go, often you'll get just a 3 minute window.
 
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bc2209 said:
Will ATC clear you for an approach at an non-towered/uncontrolled airport
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100%

or do they just get you to the initial approach fix and let you have at it?
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What do you mean exactly? You need to be cleared for something. How else are you going to get down to the airport?

Also, if they do clear you for an approach, do they assign a specific approach? (say there are 3 approaches available)
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The phrase "cleared approach" can be used to authorize you to conduct any approach, but it is not common. Most of the time you'll be told to expect (on initial contact) a certain approach and cleared for that approach. You may request a specific approach as well. You may be asked which approach you would prefer. But there must be an approach of some kind if you are to arrive IFR.

I had this come up the other day (i'm a new CFI-I). We filed and kept getting closer and closer to the initial approach fix and they weren't saying anything at all. So when I did prompt them they basically said, would you like to cancel IFR?
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Not sure exactly what happened here. You're saying that you were cleared direct to an IAF but not given an approach clearance, and you began to approach that IAF without an approach clearance? In that case, query the controller for clarification. If they ask you about cancelling IFR and you are not ready/do not wish to cancel IFR, tell them no.

I did end up canceling IFR as it just made things easier and safer as I was about to enter the "stack". The weather was still VFR but slowly deteriorating lower and lower.
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What stack? Were people holding ahead of you? Was this information known? You should have been given holding instructions or been otherwise told to expect a delay. Did any of that happen? Your scenario is very unclear to me.

Non towered airports with instrument approaches aren't all that different from the pilot's perspective EXCEPT that you are expected to radio/call and cancel IFR after landing. You may do so before landing as well, to expedite the process, but the non towered airport is being "blocked" for your arrival until you cancel IFR. This isn't necessary at towered airports because the tower controller can observe your arrival. The process of clearing an aircraft for an instrument approach procedure is much the same in either case. I'm shocked this is even a point of confusion between pilots and ATC in your area. I think there are large omissions in details from your scenario. I'd like to know more specifically what happened to cause the confusion.
 
fholbert said:
...... there you are eating your eggs. Meanwhile there are 6 other aircraft in a holding pattern waiting for you to report on the ground and 3 others waiting to depart
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^^^^THIS^^^^

oh, and your call sign will be well remembered. Granted it's definitely the pilots perogative and right, but on a CAVOK beautiful day to wait till canceling on the ground, and to make it worse, forgetting to cancel will be well remembered in the TRACON.
 
IFR into non towered airports is not that big of a deal. ATC will ask you what approach you want and start giving you vectors. Depending on where you are, you may have to do the procedure turn or they'll give you vectors to the final approach course. Just don't forget to cancel your flight plan if you are IMC all the way down!
 
The phrase " cleared for approach at XXX airport " was very common at the area i worked in at ZAU. most of our airspace was over approach control airspace during the day and we had only a small area over PMM VOR that we owned to the ground with only 1 airport in it. During the mid shift we would take over MKG and GRR airspace and most folks were not taught much airport control even though we had all the ILSs displayed on our video maps.

On a side note i had a pilot not cancel after i advised him that there were 2 other behind him for the approach even though i gave him the phone number to the Tracon Flight Data position ( the weather was a solid 1000 ovc 3 miles). well this jag off waited 25 minutes after he landed to call and then had the balls to ask for his IFR depature clrn. I told Flight Data to tell him except an hour delay, and yes we dont forget call signs.
 
Jordan93 said:
IFR into non towered airports is not that big of a deal. ATC will ask you what approach you want and start giving you vectors. Depending on where you are, you may have to do the procedure turn or they'll give you vectors to the final approach course. Just don't forget to cancel your flight plan if you are IMC all the way down!
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Errrr, well, not always.

Lots of the country, and I do mean lots, has NO radar coverage to the ground. Even if it does have coverage from an ARTCC (versus an approach control), their long range radar is not suitable for providing vectors (depending on the setup).

So, what happens?

Well, in fairly rural areas, where there is still a lot of, you get the "cleared for approach into XYZ". It's on you look ahead to figure out where you are, what approach YOU want to do, and where you need to go to make that happen. That's why it's still a fairly good idea to file to uncontrolled fields via a fix that is an IAP such as a VOR or other suitable waypoint.

Let me dial back and say that again...."it's ON YOU". Beebopping around the rural mid-west, mountain west, middle south, rural Texas and other such locations is fun. Not much traffic, no complex airspace, and not really much in the way of anything. But ATC really does expect to not have to hold your hand doing it. They expect you to know where you are, know where you want to go, and know how to make it happen without much in the way of intervention on their part. That means there's more to it that just file "somewhere close, hit direct and go". You really do need to look ahead at the local setup and figure out what's what.

Besides, depending on the geometry AND if you know what you are doing, procedure turns can be as fast as getting vectors.

It also means you may have to <gasp> hold once in a while. Heck, you might even have to know what a cruise clearance is and work that whole transmit over 122.1 and listen over the VOR.

And yes, landing and not cancelling is a tool move. I spent MANY turns in holding trying to get the FBO to do a ramp check to relay back to Center. Not cool. I get not cancelling in sorta-kinda VFR...many operators discourage that, and someone unfamiliar with the local scene may want to stay in the system, and I'm totally cool with that. But please, whatever reminder system you use, please remember.

Richman
 
A80TRACON said:
^^^^THIS^^^^

oh, and your call sign will be well remembered. Granted it's definitely the pilots perogative and right, but on a CAVOK beautiful day to wait till canceling on the ground, and to make it worse, forgetting to cancel will be well remembered in the TRACON.
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I don't cancel until I get to the gate. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::sarcasm:
 
@bc2209,
One thing to keep in mind along with all the other things mentioned here is operating non-RADAR, IMC into an airport that is VMC.

You can be on a cleared approach and descend out of the clouds on final right on top of an aircraft operating in the traffic pattern. Both of you are legal but the metal-to-metal sound will be just as loud.
As a technique only; I will monitor the advisory frequency a pretty good distance out. This allows me better situational awareness with regards to the traffic area. You can always make a call on advisory to let others know your intentions way before ATC "hands you off".

Now you probably have already experienced the ones that either don't have radios or those that have but don't use their radios; can't do much about these.....
 
dustoff17 said:
As a technique only; I will monitor the advisory frequency a pretty good distance out. This allows me better situational awareness with regards to the traffic area. You can always make a call on advisory to let others know your intentions way before ATC "hands you off"....
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I monitor CTAF on Comm #2 about 5-10 mins out, just to be aware of any VFR traffic nearby. When ATC tells me "frequency change approved", I continue to monitor approach on comm #1. I've had several cases where ATC tried to contact me after switching frequencies. This also make canceling IFR when you break out of the clouds easier.
 
dustoff17 said:
@bc2209,
One thing to keep in mind along with all the other things mentioned here is operating non-RADAR, IMC into an airport that is VMC.

You can be on a cleared approach and descend out of the clouds on final right on top of an aircraft operating in the traffic pattern. Both of you are legal but the metal-to-metal sound will be just as loud.
As a technique only; I will monitor the advisory frequency a pretty good distance out. This allows me better situational awareness with regards to the traffic area. You can always make a call on advisory to let others know your intentions way before ATC "hands you off".

Now you probably have already experienced the ones that either don't have radios or those that have but don't use their radios; can't do much about these.....
Click to expand...

Exactly what happened. There were two guys beneath me in the "stack" holding and shooting the approach and to make things easier I just canceled IFR. Otherwise I was trying to listen to both frequencies, teach a new student, and not get hit.
 
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