bdhill1979
Gone West
Thoughts?
Terrible idea
If you are doing to descend and hope to see something then minimum descent rate would be much better than slipping to a certain fireball.
IFR and no turn coordinator
- Thread starter timeoff
- Start date
Terrible idea
If you are doing to descend and hope to see something then minimum descent rate would be much better than slipping to a certain fireball.
sdfcvoh
This is my Custom Title
Remember - we're talking about being completely blind (zero instruments) and inside IMC. So you have to fly by the seat of your pants. Whats the safest way to give yourself a chance? I couldn't think of anything that might possibly stabilize a descent and keep the oily side down except for controls held as in a forward slip .....
tgrayson
New Member
I don't see any advantage to this; you could still end up in a roll one way or the other.
Might be able to do something based on which way the compass was turning or track was changing on the GPS, indicating which way the a/c was banked.
bdhill1979
Gone West
How will you know you are in a forward slip?
Seat of your pants means absolutely nothing in IMC.
Might as well attempt barrel rolls into the ground.
Your Magnetic compass will most likely never completely fail. You can maintain a rough wings level with that. Maintaining a minimum sink rate with a rough wings level is much more survivable than slipping into the ground.
sdfcvoh
This is my Custom Title
tgrayson
New Member
Full left aileron and full right rudder would assuredly be a slip; and there's no (aerodynamic) difference between a slip, sideslip, and forward slip. Still, too much aileron and you're rolling left; too little, and you're rolling right (and eventually skidding). Not good.
bdhill1979
Gone West
my point being that in IMC without instrumentation you have no idea what is going on.
sdfcvoh
This is my Custom Title
Good thoughts from you guys.
I'm playing total devil's advocate and saying that nothing (and I mean nothing) works. Not even the magnetic compass. You are stuck in a position in IMC with nothing but your butt. What do you do in order to give yourself a chance?
Do you let the plane's positive stability (bank) take over to keep wings level by removing your hands from the yoke, and then try to descend after trimming for a slight nose low attitude (trim tab indicator is still going to be visible) while cutting power to idle?
This sounds silly but ... I'm serious. I'm in a really strange "what-if" attitude tonight!
I'm playing total devil's advocate and saying that nothing (and I mean nothing) works. Not even the magnetic compass. You are stuck in a position in IMC with nothing but your butt. What do you do in order to give yourself a chance?
Do you let the plane's positive stability (bank) take over to keep wings level by removing your hands from the yoke, and then try to descend after trimming for a slight nose low attitude (trim tab indicator is still going to be visible) while cutting power to idle?
This sounds silly but ... I'm serious. I'm in a really strange "what-if" attitude tonight!
tgrayson
New Member
An a/c doesn't really have bank (lateral) stability; it has side slip stability. Dihedral can't detect a bank, it detects the sideslip that an uncoordinated bank will produce.
Unfortunately, there's something stronger than lateral stability....directional stability, which also reacts to sideslip. This is why aircraft are spirally unstable. If you bank to the left, the directional stability tends reorient the airplane into the relative wind in order to correct the sideslip, rather than level the wings. The resulting yawing motion tends to aggravate the bank, leading to more sideslip and more yaw, etc. This is the origin of the graveyard spiral.
Assuming the airplane was laterally in trim, it may be that a steady descent could get you out of the clouds before before the spiral could get established. I see no advantage to trimming for a nose low attitude....that just increases the airspeed at which the descent would take place. Reducing the power alone would lower the pitch attitude below the horizon, initiating a descent. (Of course, you don't have a horizon for reference, either natural or artificial.)
More to your point, although the lateral stability is low, it may be superior to your trying to manually level the wings, allowing you more time to break out of the clouds during a descent.
For a swept wing aircraft, increasing the AoA (slowing down), will increase the dihedral effect considerably, providing greater lateral stability, possibly increasing the safety of the maneuver. However, these aircraft are the least likely to lose *all* attitude references.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Seems to me that bringing power to idle and trim aft of neutral (in many cases all the way aft) and letting go of everything to let the airplane's inherent stability take over for a straight ahead descent would be preferable to the pilot trying to do anything by the seat of the pants.
tgrayson
New Member
THE CAT & DUCK METHOD OF FLYING
Today's flight age is an era highlighted with increasing emphasis on safety. Instrumentation in the cockpit and in the traffic control tower has reached new peaks of electronic perfection to assist the pilot during take-offs, flight, and landings. For whimsical contrast to these and other marvels of scientific flight engineering, it is perhaps opportune to remind pilots of the basic rules concerning the so-called Cat-and-Duck Method of Flight, just in case something goes wrong with any of these new- fangled flying instruments you find in today's aircraft.
Place a live cat on the cockpit floor. Because a cat always remains upright, he or she can be used in lieu of a needle and ball. Merely watch to see which way the cat leans to determine if a wing is low and, if so, which one.
The duck is used for the instrument approach and landing. Because any sensible duck will refuse to fly under instrument conditions, it is only necessary to hurl your duck out of the plane and follow her to the ground.
There are some limitations to the Cat-and-Duck Method, but by rigidly adhering to the following check list, a degree of success will be achieved.
- Get a wide-awake cat. Most cats do not want to stand up at all, at any time. It may be necessary to get a large fierce dog in the cockpit to keep the cat at attention.
- Make sure your cat is clean. Dirty cats will spend all their time washing. Trying to follow a cat licking itself usually results in a tight snap roll, followed by an inverted (or flat) spin. You can see this is very unsanitary.
- Old cats are best. Young cats have nine lives, but an old used-up cat with only one life left has just as much to lose an you do and will therefore be more dependable.
- Beware of cowardly ducks. If the duck discovers that you are using the cat to stay upright - or straight and level- she will refuse to leave without the cat. Ducks are no better on instruments than you are.
- Be sure the duck has good eyesight. Nearsighted ducks sometimes will go flogging off into the nearest hill. Very short-sighted ducks will not realize they have been thrown out and will descend to the ground in a sitting position. This maneuver is quite difficult to follow in an airplane.
- Use land-loving ducks. It is very discouraging to break out and find yourself on final approach for some farm pound in Iowa. Also, the farmers there suffer from temporary insanity when chasing crows off their corn fields and will shoot anything that flies.
- Choose your duck carefully. It is easy to confuse ducks with geese because many water birds look alike. While they are very competent instrument flyers , geese seldom want to go in the same direction you do. If your duck heads off for the Okefenokee Swamp, you may be sure you have been given the goose.
