jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I've picked up ice in socal before. Going from Burbank out to Palmdale you can pick up a good bit of ice in the winter, actually.
I wouldn't recommend you go try it to find out, but you can find ice out there.
Icing
- Thread starter Kestrel452
- Start date
I've picked up ice in socal before. Going from Burbank out to Palmdale you can pick up a good bit of ice in the winter, actually.
I wouldn't recommend you go try it to find out, but you can find ice out there.
Baronpilot244
Killick Stoker
The one that got my attention was a temperature inversion going into BNA last year.
OAT was 12 degrees C at 4000' (the initial approach altitude) while the ATIS was reporting something like 300' overcast in drizzle with a temp around 0C.
I enquired about ice accumulations from prior landing aircraft and told it was light with braking action reported as good, most reported breaking out as advertised.
Turned on the windhsield heat, props and everything else I had and started down for Runway 2C on the ILS.
Kept the speed up and watched in awe as the OAT gauge acted like an altimeter! Sure enough the light rain began sticking to the leading edges so boots were cycled on the approach which got the worst off.
It was interesting going from bright, warm sun to a cold and icy ramp below.
My thoughts on icing is stay away from it as much as possible, if you get in it, get out of it asap.
The Baron is certified for Flight Into Known Icing - I prefer to say it is Certified for Flight Out of Known Icing.
Bp244
OAT was 12 degrees C at 4000' (the initial approach altitude) while the ATIS was reporting something like 300' overcast in drizzle with a temp around 0C.
I enquired about ice accumulations from prior landing aircraft and told it was light with braking action reported as good, most reported breaking out as advertised.
Turned on the windhsield heat, props and everything else I had and started down for Runway 2C on the ILS.
Kept the speed up and watched in awe as the OAT gauge acted like an altimeter! Sure enough the light rain began sticking to the leading edges so boots were cycled on the approach which got the worst off.
It was interesting going from bright, warm sun to a cold and icy ramp below.
My thoughts on icing is stay away from it as much as possible, if you get in it, get out of it asap.
The Baron is certified for Flight Into Known Icing - I prefer to say it is Certified for Flight Out of Known Icing.
Bp244
jrh
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat:
All of the information in this thread is fantastic for instrument rated pilots. But for student pilots, 90% doesn't apply.
I've found the majority of student pilots and inexperienced private pilots don't have a good understanding of ice, probably because they've heard a lot of terrifying rumors and occasionally some misinformation or incomplete information from their CFI.
When I fly progress checks with student pilots, even when it's clear and a million, a lot of times during the preflight check they'll ask me if they should check the pitot heat. The conversation usually goes like this:
I say, "Well...if you want to, sure. What would you need the pitot heat for today?"
"In case we pick up ice."
"Oh...ok...why would we pick up ice on this flight?"
"Ummm...it's below freezing out...so...ummm...maybe we'd pick up ice?"
"Ok...has anyone ever talked to you about where ice comes from?"
*blank stare*
"Ice doesn't appear out of thin air. It needs two things...below freezing temps *and* visible moisture. And when I say 'visible moisture' I mean, clouds, fog, rain...those types of things. Not just a thick layer of haze. So as a VFR private pilot, all you need to worry about is staying out of the clouds, and staying out of freezing rain. If you do those two things, you'll never have to worry about ice...or check the pitot heat, for that matter."
I've had this exact conversation with about 4 or 5 student or VFR private pilots now, who were taught by multiple instructors, so I know this is a widespread issue. If you're teaching this stuff, please be very clear with inexperienced pilots that you're talking about a phenomena that will very likely never apply to them if they follow the other rules in place for them.
Otherwise you might end up with a private pilot who has completely irrational fears, like thinking the plane will magically ice up and plummet from the sky if they go flying on a nice VFR day in the winter.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Just to echo everyone else, you should consider the possibility of encountering ice from say, +2C (35F) and below. In fact, in my aircraft we're required to turn on the anti-ice gear (props, pitot, and stall vane heat) below 40F in visible moisture. That said, that's really conservative. I've never once picked up ice close to 40F, but it's best to get the stuff on early.
Of course, sometimes you blast through clouds that are below freezing and don't pick up a thing. Really, the times you're going to see any real ice accumulation is when you're going through clouds with significant amounts of moisture. That's a subjective term, but one of the best methods I've found for judging the potential for ice is using the http://aviationweather.gov/adds/icing/icing_nav.php product on aviationweather.gov. It's not always perfect, but you can get a general idea of which areas are currently most prone to icing.
The OP did ask: what about flying through snow with high cloud ceilings so that youre not actually in them?
VFR, yet that would be someplace I'd expect to pick up icing. I believe that it's important for VFR pilots to have a basic understanding of when ice can form, and what to do about it if it does. Sure, it shouldn't be a problem for them, but that doesn't mean with absolute certainty that it won't ever be. And it's dangerous enough that an inadvertent encounter can be deadly if they don't know how to react, so the benefit of taking ten minutes (max) to talk about it is pretty high.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
I realize that. But maybe it was just different where I trained, here in AZ. I trained in the summer of 03. Granted it was monsoon season for part of it, but if there was a cloud or a low ceiling, as a student pilot it was a no-go. And a ground school day.
Also, another thing, not sure where Kestrel is in his student training, but training at a class C airport I'd always hear AA MD-83 getting a radial off the TUS VOR in their departure brief.
I asked my instructor once what a radial was... he response was classic and so true. He said "Matt, we're studying soft feild landings, not radials how about we finish up this, portion of your training before asking about others."
Sound advice, if you ask me.
I asked the question to Kestrel because of what I have learned from him on here. He can be a bit "flighty" pun not intended, and doesn't seem to focus/concentrate too well. Not only that but he has other bigger issues.
Which led me to ask him why, if he probably isn't at that stage of his training, why he's focusing on that, and not where he is now.
Insert Yoda Empire Strikes Back lecture quote to Luke about paying attention to his current task, and where he is/was, and not the rebellion!
Duck_Twacy
Well-Known Member
Mmmm, 91.205 comes before 91.213, and if it says I don't need a landing light to do pattern work during the daytime, I ain't checking it. And if asked afterward by a Fed "does everything work on this aircraft" I'd feel quite comfortable telling them "yes, everything necessary for this type of operation"...including the pitot heat if flying day VFR.
Interesting discussion, for sure.
To the OP, I will continue to follow the airline rule pertaining to icing: +5C and visible moisture = inflight icing conditions = me inside if all I have is a non-FIKI aircraft.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
not quite, that means possible inflight icing conditions, which is not the same as inflight icing conditions.
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
I think he is saying that is the rule the airlines go with, and not necessarily that it will be there.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I thought so too, but then he said "= me inside if I'm in a non-FIKI airplane." That said, I usually, don't see any ice in any visible moisture above 26*F.
[modhat]Pulled the non-icing related posts out and moved them to...[/modhat]
...http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/103717-breakout-91-213-discussion-icing-thread-3.html#post1418802
...http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/103717-breakout-91-213-discussion-icing-thread-3.html#post1418802
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
VFR pilots still need to know about ice because you do NOT need to be inside a cloud to ice over. I've picked up ice in VMC before.
As far as flying IMC in the cold, everybody has a different risk threshold based on conditions, their experiance, and the equipment on their airplane.
For me, if there is no anti/deice equipment on the airplane (C-172), then I won't go IMC +5 to -10 C.
If the airplane has anti/deice equipment, but is not FIKI certified (Cirrus), then I stay out of any precip at those temps no matter how light. Obviously any reported and/or forecast icing areas are a nogo as well.
FIKI airplanes (Caravan) as per their limitations in the POH, no freezing precip or severe icing.
However in ALL airplanes I find an exit as soon as possible when I start picking up ANY ice.
As far as flying IMC in the cold, everybody has a different risk threshold based on conditions, their experiance, and the equipment on their airplane.
For me, if there is no anti/deice equipment on the airplane (C-172), then I won't go IMC +5 to -10 C.
If the airplane has anti/deice equipment, but is not FIKI certified (Cirrus), then I stay out of any precip at those temps no matter how light. Obviously any reported and/or forecast icing areas are a nogo as well.
FIKI airplanes (Caravan) as per their limitations in the POH, no freezing precip or severe icing.
However in ALL airplanes I find an exit as soon as possible when I start picking up ANY ice.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
I have picked up ice in too many weird situations to even give a temperature range. But when I read my OAT I have had ice stick from 5c to -20c and as high as FL300.... Yes I am serious and I have also not picked up ice going through heavy moisture in those temps as well. Its just so hard to tell. If I fly a plane that isnt known icing equipped and know I might end up somewhere that could possibly provide ice I make sure I have room to climb or descend. Last thing you want to do is load a plane up with ice and have no way to melt it off or at least stop the accumulation. When in doubt stay on the ground.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Just as an aside, the worst ice I've ever picked up was right around -20C. Also, a couple weeks ago I hit a section of moderate rime in the descent at -15C. Like mini said: Ice is where you find it.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
I've had these conditions before -- precip and -1/0C -- and not gotten anything. Friction raising the temp was one idea.
I'm a big fan for the NOAA site and all the Java apps. It's great for planning. PIREPs are golden, though.
I tend to think of it this way: If I'm seeing a decrease in airspeed (with power/configuration staying the same) it's too much ice.
Airspeed and/or power setting is probably the most primary and accurate "too much ice" indicator I can think of. (AOA would be even better but I don't have one of those fancy gizmos.
)That being said, I fly a FIKI airplane and start working to get out of pretty much any icing I find. Non-FIKI, it's just a terrible idea to go poking around in the clouds when the temps are near or below freezing.
I also have an airspeed that I just won't go below, no matter what, with ice on the airframe. If that means I have to descend to maintain airspeed, so be it.
In the 310, I start getting uncomfortable with a 10 knot (about 5%) drop in IAS.
That being said, I've picked up enough that I've lost 40 knots and been at takeoff power before I could get out of it. It wasn't flying well, but it was still flying.
It sucked mightily.
Fly_Unity
Well-Known Member
I usually dont pick up ice until -2 C from my experiance. -2C Is like the tipping point. I once had a 25 knot decrease in the C310 before I finally got out which scared me. And that was the day there was no forecast icing conditions.
Also there are many trips I dont even have to turn on the deicers in IMC no matter what the temps are. I fly in the Rockies where it seems to be pretty dry IMC most of the time with the exception of Jaskson Hole and SLC
Also there are many trips I dont even have to turn on the deicers in IMC no matter what the temps are. I fly in the Rockies where it seems to be pretty dry IMC most of the time with the exception of Jaskson Hole and SLC