Kestrel452
Well-Known Member
Can someone please explain to me what kind of weather i should be worried about icing in? I need another explaination because the way my CFI is telling me im just not understanding.
Icing
- Thread starter Kestrel452
- Start date
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
If the temperature is close to 0 degrees C and there is visible moisture present.
I almost never see ice until around 26 degrees and down in crap weather.
Kestrel452
Well-Known Member
what about flying through snow with high cloud ceilings so that youre not actually in them?
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Icing.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I don't think it counts. Snow that doesn't stick isn't icing. It depends on the type of snow. Wet snow will make impact ice, or a mottling of snow that's impacted on the surface, and stuck. The FAA will call that "ice" I don't really think that it counts, but ehh, I gotta follow their rules.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
A friendly tip from a crusty old pilot examiner and my equally crusty initial CFI summed this one up nicely.
If you're thinking about it, don't. Planes with anti-icing or de-icing equipment are still best advised to steer clear of ice of any kind.
Planes without ice equipment at all are best advised to steer clear of ANY situation that could cause ice. Once it's on you, there' no getting it off. The rate of accumulation could surprise you.
By the time you realize you're in trouble, it could well be too late.
When the DPE in question was an Air Force Col. in the Vietnam era and has been flying long before and ever since.. and the CFI has 5000 hours dual given, you tend to take that advice with a certain degree of added weight.
That's how it was explained to me. I hope the weight isn't lost on ya.
Ice is no time to get brave. The FAA training video actually says with no reservation: "If you take off with ice on your wings, you're going to die."
Long story short- if there's any chance you're messing with precipitation, snow, rain, ice, whatever in freezing or near freezing temperatures, get the hell out of there.
Crockrocket94
Well-Known Member
Dang man, thats cold for ice to form.
We flew through the blizzard like stuff out of MGW today and we didnt get any ice on the plane. It was About 900OVC and went up to about FL300. We have boots on the Bravo and didnt have to use them. It was plenty cold out too. Then two days ago, I was flying in from BTL to LBE in an Ultra and we picked up decent amounts of ice at 7000feet to 2000feet in the same temps.
We flew through the blizzard like stuff out of MGW today and we didnt get any ice on the plane. It was About 900OVC and went up to about FL300. We have boots on the Bravo and didnt have to use them. It was plenty cold out too. Then two days ago, I was flying in from BTL to LBE in an Ultra and we picked up decent amounts of ice at 7000feet to 2000feet in the same temps.
TXaviator
Well-Known Member
ice isnt a big deal until its a big deal, but then youre dead.
dont mess around with it.
that said.... anything below about 35F with visible moisture (cloud penetration, rain, virga, mist, snow, etc) and you *may* encounter ice.
particularly nasty things would be along the lines of freezing rain.... encountered that once in a temp inversion, i found it getting colder rapidly as i was descending for the airport, and there was a rainstorm between me and the airport... pucker-factor was high.
things i would be less worried about would be like, super super cold clouds that give you a little dusting of rime, or snowflakes... but that may just be because im inexperienced enough to think i know what im talking about. YMMV.
****
that said though, id really like to see some concrete demonstrations and numbers about "how much ice is too much"... instead of the boogey man that gets pushed around nowdays....
just like i think flying aerobatics has greatly contributed to my understanding of the mechanics of flying, id like to see real numbers and demonstrations about the effects of ice, and what types and quantities will actually kill you, rather than just saying ICE BADDDDD!!!
dont mess around with it.
that said.... anything below about 35F with visible moisture (cloud penetration, rain, virga, mist, snow, etc) and you *may* encounter ice.
particularly nasty things would be along the lines of freezing rain.... encountered that once in a temp inversion, i found it getting colder rapidly as i was descending for the airport, and there was a rainstorm between me and the airport... pucker-factor was high.
things i would be less worried about would be like, super super cold clouds that give you a little dusting of rime, or snowflakes... but that may just be because im inexperienced enough to think i know what im talking about. YMMV.
****
that said though, id really like to see some concrete demonstrations and numbers about "how much ice is too much"... instead of the boogey man that gets pushed around nowdays....
just like i think flying aerobatics has greatly contributed to my understanding of the mechanics of flying, id like to see real numbers and demonstrations about the effects of ice, and what types and quantities will actually kill you, rather than just saying ICE BADDDDD!!!
I've had ice a couple of times. But everytime I did get it, I always had a way out. Sometimes the freezing levels forcasts are a little off (like a few thousand feet). Everytime I have been in it, it has been the single most nervous feeling I have ever had. And all but 1 time it was in a 172. The build it quick, and you have to act literally instantly.
The last time I had ice, freezing level was forecast at 6k. We planed to go shoot some approaches at SBA and OXR. We went VFR toOXR to pick up a Tower enRoute clearance. Mugu vector's us off of OXR to head for SBA at 4k. Cool, temps should be at about +3,+4. No problems on the way up. On the way back, same route just reversed and 15 mins later, at around 3600 over the ocean we start picking up ice....."arooo raggy. I rink rats rice" And it was wet, sloppy ice. Next thing I know the leading edge of the tire on my side is white. The strut is covered, and the leading edge is showing signs of a new leading edge. I point at the tire to the student, and he looks perplexed as I tell him to descend. I take over, start down and let ATC know. We flew the rest of the way with 500ft of clouds beneith us, and VFR below that. Surface temps were around 13-15 C.
The moral of the story. Leave a margin of error in your abilities, and forecasters abilities. My margin was 2000ft. Obviously it wasn't enough.
The last time I had ice, freezing level was forecast at 6k. We planed to go shoot some approaches at SBA and OXR. We went VFR toOXR to pick up a Tower enRoute clearance. Mugu vector's us off of OXR to head for SBA at 4k. Cool, temps should be at about +3,+4. No problems on the way up. On the way back, same route just reversed and 15 mins later, at around 3600 over the ocean we start picking up ice....."arooo raggy. I rink rats rice" And it was wet, sloppy ice. Next thing I know the leading edge of the tire on my side is white. The strut is covered, and the leading edge is showing signs of a new leading edge. I point at the tire to the student, and he looks perplexed as I tell him to descend. I take over, start down and let ATC know. We flew the rest of the way with 500ft of clouds beneith us, and VFR below that. Surface temps were around 13-15 C.
The moral of the story. Leave a margin of error in your abilities, and forecasters abilities. My margin was 2000ft. Obviously it wasn't enough.
That's what I thought. Sure enough, turned on the light and there it was.
I was worried for a few minutes about topping the crap. Couldn't pop the tail boot and I don't like using the bleeds as "de" ice (though.....obviously we did). The biggest shocker was on the windshield. Turned on the blowers and it was like a SHEET of this crap started coming off. It had to be at least 1/2" thick (which isn't much, but when you're fat dumb and happy below -40C...it shocks you) coming off of the windshield.
Finally got on top and had a nice smooth ride over the light show.
Then got to see some St. Elmo's Fire on the descent into the HDC (north of MSY), which was neat. My FO was sticking his finger on the windshield and "dragging" it through like those glass balls with all of the sparks in em. All in all, a weird day yesterday (started the first leg with an "almost" hot start) and actually....it's been a funky week.
Anyway...yeah, have an out!!! I almost always prefer to climb if I find ice. That's normally my first choice. Obviously, if you just entered the bases at 15,000' and you're not going to struggle to make it to your destination at 13,000'........you may want to descend. But in most cases my first choice is to climb. I figure I can always get back down (one way or another), but I may not have the ability to climb if I descend first.
I try to avoid +5C or less in visible moisture without the heats on, and honestly, at +9 they're normally on (including the boot on "auto"). I'll take the power penalty. I don't like ice unless it's in my glass.
Lastly, IMO, whether you have all sorts of extra bleed air to anti-ice your plane, you're flying with boots covering 95% of the aircraft or you're in a 172.....when you find yourself in ice, GET OUT! Don't wait. Ideally, you should have a plan already so that when the time comes it isn't "hmm...let's think about this", it's "hey, let's ____". But if you find yourself in ice without a plan, you need to quickly come up with one and execute it. I'm not a big believer in that plan including "let's see if it gets any worse".
Oh, and don't be a "hero"......deice. Don't takeoff with crap on your wings/tail/flight controls/yadda. It isn't worth it. Yeah, at $15-$20/gallon, deicing is expensive and so is a heated hangar, but it's probably still cheaper than a funeral.
Be safe!
[/rant]
Sorry....like I said, it's been a funky week.
-mini
Crockrocket94
Well-Known Member
Well, January was a weird month for me and Excels so I understand 
I'm ready for vacation. I think I've mentally checked out.......which can't be good.Well, January was a weird month for me and Excels so I understand
-mini
MikeOH58
Well-Known Member
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
It's been awhile...
But as a student pilot should you even concern yourself with icing??? You can't, or shouldn't even fly into a cloud with a PPL!
So, why the concern with icing!?
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I've seen some pretty frosty ships come back to the field since I've been flying. Most of these birds can take more than you'd think. That's not to say that you should be out driving around in it, but if you do wind up stuck in it and can't get out, a little trace most likely won't kill you, just have a backup plan.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
I thought about making a separate thread, but i found this one.
Anyway, living down south, icing isnt something we encounter too often, although tonight was different. right about 34 at the surface with rain. I didnt make the decision to take the run lightly. I checked freezing levels, pirpes, and the CIP. Some of the information was conflicting, but after weighing it all i deiced to make the trip.
I'll tell you right now that i didnt encounter a bit of icing all night, which is why im writing this, im hoping someone that knows more than me can explain it. Everyone knows that icing is bad, im not arguing that, what im writing this for is to question when you actually encounter ice.
Everyone knows ice may{/B] form at temperatures at or below freezing with visible moisture. However, after flying about four hours with temps right around zero, and segments around -1 or -2, with rain through out, I never saw a bit of ice. Im not complaining, i was just prepared for the worst with a back up plan for every segment.
What im really wondering is, does anyone have a definitive answer of when ice will form? Ive heard tons of antidotes, like you snow wont stick, and unless its SLD, you cant get ice unless you're in the clouds. Which i will say, there were parts tonight i was in the rain with temps about -2 and never saw the tiniest bit of ice.
Now the disclaimer:
Im not saying what i did was the right decision, i looked at all available weather products and made the decision for myself. If you think it was reckless fine, the fact is i knew the dangers when i took off and i was prepared for every eventuality, and after the end of the night im sitting here typing this after an uneventful trip. Which is really my question. Why was it an uneventful trip? My OAT was at or below freezing, and there was visible moisture, why didnt I ice up?
Anyway, living down south, icing isnt something we encounter too often, although tonight was different. right about 34 at the surface with rain. I didnt make the decision to take the run lightly. I checked freezing levels, pirpes, and the CIP. Some of the information was conflicting, but after weighing it all i deiced to make the trip.
I'll tell you right now that i didnt encounter a bit of icing all night, which is why im writing this, im hoping someone that knows more than me can explain it. Everyone knows that icing is bad, im not arguing that, what im writing this for is to question when you actually encounter ice.
Everyone knows ice may{/B] form at temperatures at or below freezing with visible moisture. However, after flying about four hours with temps right around zero, and segments around -1 or -2, with rain through out, I never saw a bit of ice. Im not complaining, i was just prepared for the worst with a back up plan for every segment.
What im really wondering is, does anyone have a definitive answer of when ice will form? Ive heard tons of antidotes, like you snow wont stick, and unless its SLD, you cant get ice unless you're in the clouds. Which i will say, there were parts tonight i was in the rain with temps about -2 and never saw the tiniest bit of ice.
Now the disclaimer:
Im not saying what i did was the right decision, i looked at all available weather products and made the decision for myself. If you think it was reckless fine, the fact is i knew the dangers when i took off and i was prepared for every eventuality, and after the end of the night im sitting here typing this after an uneventful trip. Which is really my question. Why was it an uneventful trip? My OAT was at or below freezing, and there was visible moisture, why didnt I ice up?
vikingair
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised this isn't one of the most commented on threads..especially in February. I'm mostly a Socal pilot so icing is foreign to me for the most part and no matter what the airplane and certs are for it..scares the crap outta me. I hate to admit it but 99.9999 of my knowledge of ice is theoretical and I realize that one flight in icing is worth as much as everything I think I know.
EIR
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
0C ->-10C is the norm and visibile moisture. Obviously it can happen in different temp ranges as mini stated above. I've picked up ice when it was warmer than 0c and cooler than -10c, so ymmv.
Take a look at airmets, pireps and SkewT charts to get a better grasp of where the ice is actually forming.
Take a look at airmets, pireps and SkewT charts to get a better grasp of where the ice is actually forming.