Icing in the air...

Part of my three hours of "instrument flying" for my PPL was in IMC (for .2 with a CFII). In a 172 too. Reckless? I don't think so. I fly around Maine, therefore I fly over water. Does it bother me? not really. There is a runway at BHB that if I lose an engine at 100', I'm in for a swim. Do I not use it, because it puts me over water? heck no.

If something were to go wrong with the powerplant, I'd rather be at 10k in IMC than 4k in the clear. I'll be in the clear at 4k anyways, and I pissed away 6k "so I could see what I'd hit"? I'll see it anyways 10 miles further along when I break out.

And this is from someone that doesn't get paid to fly.
 
I was suprised about ditching until I read up on it. Most folks live through the ditching procedure. We have a van pilot out in TEB who ditched in front of Coney Island (NOT in an Airnet airplane - banner towing). You should talk to him if you have the opportunity-it's an interesting story but basically he felt that the actual ditch itself was not a difficult deal.

Lake Michigan is a different story. I don't fault you for being safe - but taking a Van into the 20's probably ticks off Chicago Center like no other. There's arrivals all night over BEARZ HALIE and PAPPI intersections, and RNAV departures out to PETTY. Climbing your slow-azz Caravan through the mid-altitudes probably really causes a headache, and slugging it in the 20's causing them to route and separate traffic around you. But they'll accommodate you because you're shouting "Safety".

I really applaud you thinking critically about being safe and being on time. Your priorities are spot on, but you have to draw a line in the sand. You won't see me doing 40 on the New Jersey turnpike because it's safer to drive more slowly.
 
ljg said:
I was suprised about ditching until I read up on it. Most folks live through the ditching procedure.
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Out of curiousity - where did you read about it? The reason I ask is because I was fed opposite info in my Army ditching course.
 
Ian J said:
Out of curiousity - where did you read about it? The reason I ask is because I was fed opposite info in my Army ditching course.
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The ASF, and during a recent CFI renewal, but here's another link from the AOPA:

http://www.aopa.org/pilot/features/inflight9907.html

Bottom line

This may all sound absolutely dreadful, but statistics show that most ditchings are successful. By one count, 88 percent of all ditchings were survived. Other statistics show a 92-percent successful egress rate. A recent search of NTSB data from 1983 to 1999 shows that there were 143 ditchings on record, and that only 20 of them involved fatalities. Most of those fatalities happened in open-ocean, cold-water environments.
 
Thanks!

Come to think of it, in my course they were probably only using military ditching stats.
 
ljg said:
The ASF, and during a recent CFI renewal, but here's another link from the AOPA:

http://www.aopa.org/pilot/features/inflight9907.html

Bottom line

This may all sound absolutely dreadful, but statistics show that most ditchings are successful. By one count, 88 percent of all ditchings were survived. Other statistics show a 92-percent successful egress rate. A recent search of NTSB data from 1983 to 1999 shows that there were 143 ditchings on record, and that only 20 of them involved fatalities. Most of those fatalities happened in open-ocean, cold-water environments.
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I would like to know how many of those ditchings were fixed gear versus retract. I'm not saying it's a done deal if you are ditching in a fixed, I've met a guy who ditched in the Gulf of Mexico in a Caravan, but I'm sure there are some more serious injuries.
 
ackeight said:
I would like to know how many of those ditchings were fixed gear versus retract.
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According to the stuff I've read, fixed gear dosen't make much of a difference. The gear cuts into the water providing a more gradual deceleration. There is a higher probability of fliping, but it generally happens slowly enough that there is no serious injuries.
 
mikecweb said:
Once again, when your getting paid to fly the only limitations are the ones in the AFM and the FARs.
Saying that being in a single engine is a limitation is rediculous.
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That may be your opinion and you're entitled to it. Have enough problems in single engine airplanes and your opinion may change.

At the end of the day Mini you'll do what you want. If flying in the flight levels in the caravan to avoid IMC gives you the warm and fuzzies so be it.
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Nah, I wouldn't take it that far. Of the risks I'm willing to accept, flying a single engine airplane in actual is one of them unless I have a viable alternate course of action. I'll change altitude by a few thousand feet, sure. But to change a cruising altitude from say 6 to 24k seems a little on the extreme end. I sure as hell would go to 20 to avoid icing though.

All I'm saying is if you sacrafice deadlines of the run you are floating or the runs that connect with your run, you are not doing your job. Your job isn't to be comfortable. Your job isn't to set personal minimums. If it becomes a trend you'll be called out on it.
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And that's fair enough. I don't think IMC is a reasonable excuse for getting a re-route or getting an altitude with perhaps unfavorable winds. Avoiding over-water flight in single engine airplanes, I believe that's a reason to get a re-route.

I just don't want to read a thread in 4 months when you quit and call the company dangerous because they made you flying IMC in a single-engine airplane.
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I would never claim such a thing. It is one of the risks I'm willing to accept unless I can avoid it (reasonably). I'm not going to go down over TN and come up through the Virginias to get to LCK on a flight from CPS to avoid IMC. Ice...probably not. Depends on how much $ the extra gas would cost over a possible in-flight divert and de-ice. Certainly not because every airport from MO to OH is 200-1/2...you can always get a route that keeps you within decent ILS range in that part of the country.

It's not about medals or big balls, it's about your job. Some do it and some make excuses.
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Your job is to get stuff from A to B safely and legally and at the very least, in a reasonable amount of time with respect to the "deadlines". I don't feel flying over large bodies of water beyond power off gliding distance in a single engine airplane is as safe as it can be. It's not something I'm willing to compromise. Some are and that's fine.

The company is more than welcome to assign me to runs that never go near water. If they do, I'll either climb so to stay within gliding distance, or go around. That's part of my responsibility as PIC to myself, the company (it's their asset - the airplane) and the customer (it's their product).

I can live with you thinking I'm making an excuse about it.

-mini
 
minitour said:
That may be your opinion and you're entitled to it. Have enough problems in single engine airplanes and your opinion may change.


Nah, I wouldn't take it that far. Of the risks I'm willing to accept, flying a single engine airplane in actual is one of them unless I have a viable alternate course of action. I'll change altitude by a few thousand feet, sure. But to change a cruising altitude from say 6 to 24k seems a little on the extreme end. I sure as hell would go to 20 to avoid icing though.


And that's fair enough. I don't think IMC is a reasonable excuse for getting a re-route or getting an altitude with perhaps unfavorable winds. Avoiding over-water flight in single engine airplanes, I believe that's a reason to get a re-route.


I would never claim such a thing. It is one of the risks I'm willing to accept unless I can avoid it (reasonably). I'm not going to go down over TN and come up through the Virginias to get to LCK on a flight from CPS to avoid IMC. Ice...probably not. Depends on how much $ the extra gas would cost over a possible in-flight divert and de-ice. Certainly not because every airport from MO to OH is 200-1/2...you can always get a route that keeps you within decent ILS range in that part of the country.


Your job is to get stuff from A to B safely and legally and at the very least, in a reasonable amount of time with respect to the "deadlines". I don't feel flying over large bodies of water beyond power off gliding distance in a single engine airplane is as safe as it can be. It's not something I'm willing to compromise. Some are and that's fine.

The company is more than welcome to assign me to runs that never go near water. If they do, I'll either climb so to stay within gliding distance, or go around. That's part of my responsibility as PIC to myself, the company (it's their asset - the airplane) and the customer (it's their product).

I can live with you thinking I'm making an excuse about it.

-mini
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At least you have it all figured out.
 
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