ICAO ATP Time Requirements

[nabd30]

OK, so I have three FAR questions that have been bugging me, and since these require interpretation of 3 different FAR sections (91,61,121) I'm not sure how to determine the answer:

To reach the 1200 hours (ICAO standard) total time requirements for the unrestricted ATPL (i.e. able to upgrade to left seat for ICAO ops), I understand that qualifying 121/135 SIC time only counts as 50% towards the 1200 hours total time req. I have two questions concerning this:

1) If someone is an FO for a 121/135 operation operating an aircraft which doesn't require a type rating and is certified for single-pilot ops, is the FO thus logging PIC on their legs, and thus 100% time towards the ICAO 1200 hours total time???

2) If someone is working as an FO under 121/135 on any type of aircraft, is that FO legal to go out on off days and fly a Cessna 150 (under 91, of course), to up their time towards ICAO 1200 hrs and FAA ATP 1500 hrs total time requirements???

3) Would it be true that these desperate carriers hiring guys with wet commercials @250TT can keep those guys at FO for 1900 hours:

1200-250 = 950

950 x 2 = 1900 hours @ 50% to get to ICAO 1200 total time

 

[casey]

1) The captain logs PIC. The FO is either required or he isnt. If hes required he logs SIC, if he isnt he logs nothing.

2) yes

3) no, i believe they can upgrade with an ICAO restriction. It would just mean they cant fly to canada/mexico/bahamas, etc, and not all regionals do that anyway.

 

[Cruise]

OK, so I have three FAR questions that have been bugging me, and since these require interpretation of 3 different FAR sections (91,61,121) I'm not sure how to determine the answer:

To reach the 1200 hours (ICAO standard) total time requirements for the unrestricted ATPL (i.e. able to upgrade to left seat for ICAO ops), I understand that qualifying 121/135 SIC time only counts as 50% towards the 1200 hours total time req. I have two questions concerning this:

1) If someone is an FO for a 121/135 operation operating an aircraft which doesn't require a type rating and is certified for single-pilot ops, is the FO thus logging PIC on their legs, and thus 100% time towards the ICAO 1200 hours total time???

I'm gonna say NO....not 100% certain though. My understanding is that the only person logging PIC is the person who signed for the plane. Could easily be wrong....need someone that can quote the regs.

2) If someone is working as an FO under 121/135 on any type of aircraft, is that FO legal to go out on off days and fly a Cessna 150 (under 91, of course), to up their time towards ICAO 1200 hrs and FAA ATP 1500 hrs total time requirements???

Yes. Some companies have restrictions against flying commercially on the side...but nothing says you can't go punch holes in the sky for fun to build time.

3) Would it be true that these desperate carriers hiring guys with wet commercials @250TT can keep those guys at FO for 1900 hours:

1200-250 = 950

950 x 2 = 1900 hours @ 50% to get to ICAO 1200 total time

Yeah, probably. Lots of carriers have FO w/ thousands of hours in the right seat before they upgrade.

 

[chris]

An American or Canadian ATP are considered ICAO, as are licenses from other regions.

Not sure how it works in the USA, in Canada we have this silly rule where all time as FO only counts as 50% towards your ATP. Up here we need 1500hrs total, 250 PIC, 200 PIC x/c, 25 PIC night x/c, 100 night, and 75 instrument.

That's why it's so important to get some PIC time early in your career. If you get "lucky" and get a job as an FO on something like a B1900D which requires an ATP to go PIC, then you will never be able to upgrade unless you go rent an airplane to build your PIC time.

 

[falconvalley]

1) If someone is an FO for a 121/135 operation operating an aircraft which doesn't require a type rating and is certified for single-pilot ops, is the FO thus logging PIC on their legs, and thus 100% time towards the ICAO 1200 hours total time???

If you're not trained as a PIC at that company, then that PIC won't mean much, other than for the requirements for upgrade. Yes, the FAA has a letter that says that at certain carriers, SICs of aircraft that don't normally require a SIC can log "flight time" for upgrade, but it's specifically for upgrade at that carrier.

 

[falconvalley]

Man, that's a weird one. Never thought about it until now. Now, I'm confused.

 

[falconvalley]

Ok, I stand corrected. Granted this is from an article in 1999, but is what I remember the FAA letter to be stating:


"Logging SIC/PIC time: here's howIn addition to hiring pilot in command (PIC) qualified pilots, AirNet Systems, Inc. offers a program by which pilots serve as first officers (FOs) on light, twin-engine, piston-powered aircraft operating under 14 CFR 135. Candidates for this particular program have less than 1,200 hours total flight time and/or less than certain categories of flight time such as cross country. As noted in 14 CFR 135.243(c), 1,200 hours total flight time, is the minimum total time a pilot must have to be assigned as pilot in command in IFR conditions while operating under 14 CFR 135. In the same regulation, minimums also are established for cross country, night, and instrument flight time. No minimum PIC time is specified. The minimum grade of pilot certificate for PIC or second in command (SIC) is Commercial. AirNet’s first officer program allows pilots to build their flight time to 1,200 hours and/or to meet the minimums established for the categories mentioned above.
Here is how a pilot utilizes the flight time accrued in AirNet’s program: 14 CFR 135 subparts G and H establish the requirements for testing and training of flight crew members in each type of aircraft to which they are assigned to duty by an air carrier operating under 14 CFR 135. For a flight crew member to be assigned duty, the air carrier and the pilot must comply with all requirements. This, of course, allows the pilot to be on board the aircraft as a flight crew member.
Since the pilot can now legally be a flight crew member, the pilot also can manipulate the aircraft’s flight controls. How a pilot logs the flight time is found in 14 CFR 61.51(e)1. If a pilot assigned as SIC manipulates the flight controls of an aircraft in which that pilot is rated, that pilot may log the time as PIC. This does NOT change who is assigned as pilot in command. Operations conducted under 14 CFR 135 can have only ONE assigned PIC, regardless of who is manipulating the flight controls. The assigned PIC must be assigned in writing and remains the pilot in command throughout the flight. Therefore, when the SIC manipulates the flight controls, that pilot may log PIC flight time. The only time the second in command can log SIC flight time is while that person is serving as second in command on an aircraft requiring more than one pilot by its type certificate, or when required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Obviously, AirNet’s light piston twins do not require more than one pilot by the type certificates, however, there are conditions under 14 CFR 135 operations which do require two pilots regardless of the aircraft type. Examples include takeoffs below 1,800 RVR, carrying passengers in IFR conditions without an autopilot, and whenever the flight crew is being assigned to more than eight hours of flight time. In most cases, even these requirements do not apply to operations at AirNet, therefore, the SIC logs pilot in command time while being the sole manipulator of the flight controls and logs total time only, when not manipulating the flight controls.
This program and method of logging flight time is supported not only by Federal Aviation Regulations, but also by legal interpretations. Keep in mind, however, that as pilots move through their careers and apply for other jobs, certain organizations may require specific conditions of pilot in command time. One major airline, for example, has very specific instructions on its application that state pilot in command time is ONLY the time for which you were responsible for or in charge of the aircraft, not merely sole manipulator of the flight controls.In summary, there is a difference between who is assigned as pilot in command and who may be manipulating the flight controls and logging PIC time. At times, both pilots may be logging PIC time because one is the assigned pilot in command (acting PIC as provided in 14 CFR 61.51(e)1(iii)) and the other may be manipulating the flight controls but assigned as second in command.
In most cases at AirNet, an assigned SIC is either logging the time as pilot in command when he or she is the sole manipulator of the flight controls, logging the flight time as total time only when not manipulating the flight controls, or as SIC if required to be there either by the aircraft type certificate or by the regulations under which the operations are conducted."

http://www.airapps.com/articles/AirNetDec99/airnet.html