I want out..

Tram said:
From your position, one that most of us would gladly trade with you, it's easy to give advice. You're a fighter pilot. You'll never get stuck at a regional..

..
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Don't for one minute think that there isn't a HUGE amount of BS we have to put up in our employment either, or that flying fighters is all roses. It surely isn't. Granted, many of our BS differs from the BS you have to put up with at the regionals, but in the end BS is BS all the same.
 
Tram said:
From your position, one that most of us would gladly trade with you, it's easy to give advice.
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I'm sure it looks that way from where you're sitting, but that's just the thing -- this isn't a 'dream job' either, regardless of how it apparently looks to you from the outside. There's a crapload that I could be complaining about in my job, too. In fact, there's a lot about my job that I absolutely despise and absolutely can't wait until I can leave the military so I can leave behind. Think you spend a lot of time away from home as a regional pilot? How many 6-month deployments to sandboxes have you been to during your regional airline career? How many times have you been shot at on the job? What ground job is it that you have to work at your company when you're done flying? Is your pay and progression directly linked to how well you do at that paperwork job? Are your pay increases, job progression, upgrades, etc, all based on completely subjective judgments of merit? Does your job make you drag your family to a new home every 3 years like it or not (kids in school absolutely love that)?

Go read the forums at baseops.net and you'll get more than an earful of complaints about what burrs are under our saddles, if you're so inclined. My bet is that if you saw all the crap that I have to deal with in my job, you would want absolutely no part of it. My job isn't any more 'perfect' than yours (or even your 'dream' job) is. Mine probably actually sucks worse than yours.

The point of this all is, there IS no brass ring unless YOU MAKE IT that way. How you choose to live your life, how you choose to view your life circumstances, have a LOT more bearing on your own personal satisfaction than any job compensation can possibly give. Again, the grass isn't greener.
 
Ok guys.. Cool your jets.. It was't an attack on the .mil guys. I have nothing but respect for you guys and a fair amount of envy. I wish I had joined the military. I think everyone should serve in some capacity. Anyway, I don't need to read baseops posts. Not everyone on here stumbled into aviation from no where.. Aviation is all I've ever known. I was born in Corpus Christi - of all places. My father met my mother in the O club in Pensacola.. My father, uncle and grandfather are all former Navy pilots.. I didn't join the military because of what I was told about the military.. I don't think you guys have it easy with no issues.. I understand as best as the child, nephew and grandson of prior servicemen can...

I know there's a ton of BS in the military.. I didn't join the military for two main reasons a.) the BS and I was told by more than one guy that "the Navy I flew in and the Navy you'll flew in will be two different Navy's.." and b.) I thought I wanted to be an airline pilot and I figured I could go to a regional and beat a guy of my similar "age" into the majors after his 12 year commitment..

I've been that kid, Hacker. I don't need to read any forums. I didn't join the military because I didn't think 6 month work ups for a cruise and then a 6 month cruise would be my cup of tea.. I didn't join the military because once you got done flying you got to be the drug officer or the X or the Y or the Z when you were doing your job.. All I heard was how the cruises "weren't all they're cracked up to be."

I just made a simple post. I want out. It looks like I made a career choice in error. I have family members at two of the most sought after places to work in this industry - neither of them can wait to retire.. I just want something quasi-stable that most likely won't require me to pack up my family and move to the nearest hub and I refuse to commute.

I wasn't trying to complain.. I was just venting, then some people asked what I didn't like, so I told them.. Sure there are days where I'm like "this is not a gig.."

I'm a little on edge, I was starting to see the light in the tunnel, possible upgrade and if not that then even more seniority as others left and now, the tunnel has collapsed all around me.. LOL..

I'm not going to get out of aviation for some grocery bagger job.. I've really got my eye on two jobs - the corporate gig, it's aviation they are all gambles and a gig with the local power company TVA.. I know, the grass isn't greener - man, it's greener over there.. I have lots of friends and family who work there.. They work the same type work I do. 3 on, 4 off, etc and every 5th week is a mandatory week of vacation.. Pay is just shy of $100K a year and living where I live, that might as well be $500K in a larger city. Rural Alabama has it's perks..

If the right opportunity comes along and makes sense for me to get out, I'm gone.. I'll fly for fun, instead of for a living.
 
Doug Taylor said:
If anyone has the perfect profession where effort < compensation, loads of days off, great vacation packages and not having to deal with people with half your experience or knowledge that have more power than me telling me what to do, let me know because I'm applying today! :)

The airline business is not perfect in any way, but we've all got to make a living and it's the least disgusting method I have of doing that. Career satisfaction is someone you look back on after you retire and qualify if you've had it or not.
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To all, just about all the job satisfaction surveys list Truck Driver as number 1. Always higher than Airline Pilots. Lots of time alone in a cab doing the job, little interference, 3-4 days a week on, just about always a shortage so u can take time off ( without pay), easy access to speed and downers without messing with a Flight Doc, reasonably priced hookers at most truck stops, no weight standards etc. I know a couple of guys that left aviation pretty senior flying nice equipment who wished they had changed earlier.
The basic issue with all these complaints is: that is why they call it work, and pay u to do it! So get over it! We fly because we love it. So do lots of others, so there will always be a large supply of pilots so wages will not increase. In 10-15 years airliners will be single pilot. Boeing is flight testing the follow on to the Dreamliner 1/8 scale Tretter as a RPA. What's that tell you! For the military guys, stay till 20. I make 40K a year for breathing. And medical. Yes my son lived in 3 countries by the time he was 4. We thought that was a plus.
For satisfaction, try Flight Instructing. After 20 years flying fighters, and 11 teaching, I still love the CFI gig. If I have to ferry an airplane by myself, it doesn't blow my skirt up. I know I can fly straight and level, they won't let me blow stuff up anymore, so my joy in flying is teaching, especially Pre-solo. My instructors are all retired military and loving it!
BTW Hacker, for years I said I wouldn't take a contractor job because I didn't want to get shot at anymore without being able to shoot back. I'm over that now.
Just a few thoughts. There is no perfect job, except someone else's, and he wants yours!
 
Tram said:
Ok guys.. Cool your jets.. It was't an attack on the .mil guys. I have nothing but respect for you guys and a fair amount of envy. I wish I had joined the military. I think everyone should serve in some capacity. Anyway, I don't need to read baseops posts. Not everyone on here stumbled into aviation from no where.. Aviation is all I've ever known. I was born in Corpus Christi - of all places. My father met my mother in the O club in Pensacola.. My father, uncle and grandfather are all former Navy pilots.. I didn't join the military because of what I was told about the military.. I don't think you guys have it easy with no issues.. I understand as best as the child, nephew and grandson of prior servicemen can...

.
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Its all good. No one is criticizing the facts of what you're feeling, just letting you know that while it may look better where peeps like Hacker or myself are, theres our own BS to deal with, so don't think we're on easy street in terms of a good life. I know you're weren't bagging on us in any way, but we do have our problems too.

Best thing I've found to do is do aviation as a secondary gig. I have 2.5 careers: Two primary and one contract. The two primary ones are CBP pilot/agent, where I'm an agent first and a pilot second, though I mostly fly; and the second one being AFRES, where I only do it part-time, but being part-time I can avoid BS paperwork jobs since thats not my full time job. Either way, in CBP flying isnt my primary gig, and in the AFRES I don't do it daily. So I'm pretty happy overall. :)
 
MikeD said:
Its all good. No one is criticizing the facts of what you're feeling, just letting you know that while it may look better where peeps like Hacker or myself are, theres our own BS to deal with, so don't think we're on easy street in terms of a good life. I know you're weren't bagging on us in any way, but we do have our problems too.

Best thing I've found to do is do aviation as a secondary gig. I have 2.5 careers: Two primary and one contract. The two primary ones are CBP pilot/agent, where I'm an agent first and a pilot second, though I mostly fly; and the second one being AFRES, where I only do it part-time, but being part-time I can avoid BS paperwork jobs since thats not my full time job. Either way, in CBP flying isnt my primary gig, and in the AFRES I don't do it daily. So I'm pretty happy overall. :)
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Yeh, I know you guys arn't on easy street.. At least you two get "accompanied deployments." Those poor Navy boys only get their bunkmate.. ;)

I think I'd love the border patrol type stuff, but there are not a lot of borders in need of patroling here in Bama.. Tried to get a job with the Forestry Service but they're not hiring here locally. Once the last guy retires, that's it.. It'll all be contracted out..

I guess I just don't enjoy 121 flying.. Positive rate, gear up.. Speed mode.. heading mode.. autopilot on.. Point a. Point b. Done.. Ya know?

I've got an alternate gig. I own my own company on the side, we manufacture remote control airplanes.. I'm world wide baby! :)
 
I definitely know the feeling. I'd probably bail out too if I wasn't making such good money at this point. I got lucky and managed to get hired at a major before everything shut down on the hiring, so now I've got a much better problem than others: I'd really prefer to leave aviation and go back to school to get a law degree, but there isn't any way on God's green earth that I can give up the money, especially with the SWA merger coming. I'd never recoup the money in a different career, even if I was very successful.

I think the answer for me is what Hacker talked about above: make the best of it. I've got my budget set so I'll only need to credit about 50 hours a month after the merger, so I'll have 20+ days off with a good income and the ability to do stuff I enjoy. Perhaps I'll do some ferry work to enjoy general aviation again, and I'll probably get involved in the family business so I can take over my dad's real estate brokerage when he retires. Whatever it is, I know for sure that I won't be doing 4 day trips for the rest of my life. It just isn't worth it.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. If you can afford to get out, then I suggest you do it, because if not, you may reach a point when you're making too much money to leave.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'd really prefer to leave aviation and go back to school to get a law degree,
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Didnt we have a guy try that already? Turned out to be a hack at law, so tucked his tail and came back to pull gear?......:)

but there isn't any way on God's green earth that I can give up the money, especially with the SWA merger coming.
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I KNEW you secretly wanted to be SWA! Admit it!!! :)
 
ProudPilot said:
Join me, I'm going to the railroads. Same crappy QOL, but with benefits, quality pay, and they ACTUALLY LET YOU SLEEP ON REST... no phone calls... no weird text messages.
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Don't let the FAA find out about this. They have clearly defined rest as absolutely no contact. No phone calls, no text messages, period. You can't be required to answer a phone or hold a pager or perform any company functions.
 
Blackhawk said:
Don't let the FAA find out about this. They have clearly defined rest as absolutely no contact. No phone calls, no text messages, period. You can't be required to answer a phone or hold a pager or perform any company functions.
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Then why does my company call us halfway through a reduced rest period to tell us our show time has changed by 7 minutes?
 
The FAA's interpretation is that unless you are required to answer your phone, then it's not duty. They can call you all night long, and as long as they don't require you to answer, it's not an interruption of rest.
 
Tram - What airline were/are you at and how long until you upgrade? I get that FO pay is not great at regionals, but I guess I don't understand why so many people bag on regionals. Maybe they were all people who gave up and never made CA I dunno. I do know from talking to tons of pilots through the years is once you make CA you really aren't stressing about money all too much for the rest of your career, for the most part.

You also have almost certainly secured yourself opportunities at legacy carriers a few years down the road. And if you decide not do move up who cares. Look at how much 3rd-4th-5th year CAs make at large jet regionals. Its seriously not crap money at all. Plus those guys keep getting better seniority and pay as the years of being CA go up so they get more and more of what they want in terms of trips/schedule.

However, all of this depends primarily on the regional. The pay is definitely not as high for CA at a turboprop regional than a jet one. I guess I would say if you have already put in 2-3 years as an FO and are relatively close to an upgrade that if you can work it out to stick with it. Your pay will go way up as CA and eventually you can be qualified for a legacy after a few more years and boy when you make it to a legacy that is a good thing.

Just my thoughts.
 
James-

I'm at 9E.. I'll be on 5th pay in a couple months. No telling when upgrades will come.. We are starting to see some movement, but there are 150 or so FO's ahead of me..

As far as making CA and having it made, I know lots of CA's who ate deeper in debt than I am.. Once you make CA you are not promised to stay there, or your base of choice.. Just ask the 75 CREWS we are about to displace or the majority of the Comair guys with their necks on the block..

Berkut- I'm at ~1.5 years of the 3-5 year wait for an AUO job here.. I'm not leaving aviation for anything that isn't a "good" thing...
 
Doug Taylor said:
Just a generational shift. No one truly enjoys work 24/7, but poverty is worse than a job one doesn't truly enjoy.

I'm sure my dad didn't like working in a milk production factory either, but it allowed him to raise and support a family.

I hate getting out of bed to go work, but if I want to keep all of my stuff, I need to find methods of maximizing the tools I have in front of me which, well, the alternative being a dumpster diver, commuting to JFK is a comparatively simple choice.

If anyone has the perfect profession where effort < compensation, loads of days off, great vacation packages and not having to deal with people with half your experience or knowledge that have more power than me telling me what to do, let me know because I'm applying today! :)

The airline business is not perfect in any way, but we've all got to make a living and it's the least disgusting method I have of doing that. Career satisfaction is someone you look back on after you retire and qualify if you've had it or not.
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It's called Goldman Sachs. They even get paid by the government. Oh, and they work "really hard" for all of that income.
 
BajtheJino said:
Which one? I've had my junk in at NS for a couple of months for a conductor position. My brother is a trainmaster up in Muncie, IN thats helping me through the (painfully) slow process. Where are you at in your process?
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BNSF up here. Pay is around 40-50K first year and then around 60-75K from there on. Plus cost of living is ridiculously low up here. You know we actually did fine on 15K a year, and this year combined we're doing around 40K a year paying off student loans doing just fine. So if I get the offer (I have a conditional offer for now, have to pass the last tests) then we'll make a combined 90K a year up here. Already looking at the housing market. Fargo is way cheaper and way more fun.
 
Oh, and applied, interviewed 3 weeks later, conditional offer 24 hours later, testing started the next week. Should be in my job 1.5 months after the conditional offer.
 
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