I though air force pilot slots

[MDPilot]

Alright, here goes.

First, I don't know what research you've been doing shows high school grads going on to fly, with the possible exception of Army warrant officers, it's not happening. All pilots in the military (except Army warrant officers) are college graduates, initially commissioned as 2nd Lts.

Second, your 1200 hours of flying time mean squat, zero, zilch. It may be a slight plus in the selection criteria for certain ANG and OCS slots to have a few flying hours under your belt, but no advantage after 50-60 or so. The military training curriculum is predicated on student entries with essentially zero hours. You don't get to skip ahead because you have 1200 hrs, in fact you will have your own hard time unlearning the way you fly in order to learn the "military" way. Example: UPT for the AF is 1 year long, you'll be there the whole time, then go on to weapon system specific training for another 6 mo to a year.

Third, there is no lottery involved, just several aptitude tests, physical exams, and competitve boards you must meet where experienced officers look at you and your scores, to determine who has the greatest chance to make it through training. Competition. It's how you will live for your military career. BTW, active duty committment after completition of UPT is 10 years.

Fourth, There are no guarantees. Period. If you think you have found someone in the military who will guarantee something, start looking for the catch, cause there's one there.

Fifth, Quick run down, okay
Navy/Marines - roughly half helos, half jets. highly competitive to get selected for jets, only after you are committed and training has started
Coast Guard - majority helicopters, a few C-130 and smaller fixed wing.
Air Force - tankers, fighters, transports, bombers, a few helos. Aircraft selection is made half way through UPT by class ranking
Army - 99% helos, a very few light prop planes not available to new guys, only place where non commissioned officers (Warrant Officers) can fly
Air National Guard/Air Force Reserves - can be the great secret, closest to a guarantee that you'll find since you are "rushing" a particular unit, you don't commit until you are selected for a flying slot. Probably the most competition also

ALL the above are extremely competitive, selection rates run 1 in 10 at best. Graduation rates from flying training usually about 75 to 80%. One of the worst students I ever had while I was a T-38 IP was a 2500 hr CFII. He just couldn't learn the military way of doing things.

Next question?

Basically all I need to know is will by 1200 hours mean anything to the air force/navy/coast guard/whatever if I were to join? In my internet searching adventures, it seems to me the overwhelming majority of people who fly for the military, joined right after high school with zero time. I'm not finding any instances where someone had a semi-established civilian career and then decided to go military. I've spent a lot of money and time getting the training and time, I'd hate to throw it all away and start over from scratch. I don't expect to jump right into the fighters or C-5s right off the bat; I know I'm going to have to go through at least a few months of training and stuff, I just need to have some kind of feeling that my hours are going to good use.

I'm also reading a lot of things about pilot slots pretty much being a raffle of sorts, partially determined by luck and a multitude of SAT type amplitude tests. Is this process only for high school entry, or will I be subjected to the same kind of dependence on good luck? I don't really want to sign an 8 year contract or whatever and get stuck peeling potatos because my QMBZXTYONU scores were too low to get a pilot slot or something.

Also, could you give me a brief rundown (like a sentence or two) of what kind of flying is done in each branch? Or is each branch more or less the same kind of thing? The kind of thing i'm looking for:

navy - mostly fighters, C-5's, easy to get a flight slot
coast guard - helicopters, some fighters, lets civilian's with a lot of time right in without much hassle.
airforce - tankers, fighters, helicopters, very very competitive
army - only light prop planes, near impossible to get a flying slot.

that sort of thing...

A few weeks ago I got the opportunity to sit through a Lear type rating course my company was doing for two future lear captains. I was just sitting in just for the heck of it. After day three, the other two guys' heads were spinning. I, on the other hand, had no problem following along and absorbing the information. I guess I'm just good at those sorts of things. I have no doubt that if I were to be thrown into a C5 training course tomorrow, I'd finish and pass the checkride just as easily as the other classmates. This is the reason why I'm so interested in joining the military. I know I got what it takes to cut it. The problem is figuring out whether my hours will convince the Navy/Air Force/Coast Guard, etc, that this how it is...

 

[Hacker15e]

Basically all I need to know is will by 1200 hours mean anything to the air force/navy/coast guard/whatever if I were to join?

As has been said, no. It doesn't mean anything. There is a slight advantage in both the USAF and Navy for guys who have a private ticket over guys with no flying experience, but that is it. As MD pointed out, everyone goes to both the USAF and Navy flying schools starts and finishes at the same place, regardless of previous civilian flying experience.

I'm not finding any instances where someone had a semi-established civilian career and then decided to go military. I've spent a lot of money and time getting the training and time, I'd hate to throw it all away and start over from scratch. I don't expect to jump right into the fighters or C-5s right off the bat; I know I'm going to have to go through at least a few months of training and stuff, I just need to have some kind of feeling that my hours are going to good use.

There are several guys on www.airforceots.com and with "UPT Journals" on the 'net who did exactly that. There is currently a guy on Airpilot Pilot Central's forums who flies for a regional and is looking at getting a Guard Job (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=27198, http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=27038&page=4). A little more investigation may help you discover who those guys are and you can read about their path.

As has been said, the USAF and USN both don't give two #####s about your civilian flying experience. You'll start at the bottom like everyone else. If you get into training, your experience will get you through the first two months of flying, and then you will be at the same skill level as your classmates. Unless, of course, in that 1200 hours you have a bunch of formation flying and low-level navigation experience.

I'm also reading a lot of things about pilot slots pretty much being a raffle of sorts, partially determined by luck and a multitude of SAT type amplitude tests. Is this process only for high school entry, or will I be subjected to the same kind of dependence on good luck? I don't really want to sign an 8 year contract or whatever and get stuck peeling potatos because my QMBZXTYONU scores were too low to get a pilot slot or something.

Competing to get the opportunity to become an Air Force or Navy officer is the first step. Getting selected to go to flight school is a second process. Both of those processes require preliminary test-taking and interviewing to get selected. Selection to become an officer may or may not include selection to attend pilot training.

A few weeks ago I got the opportunity to sit through a Lear type rating course my company was doing for two future lear captains. I was just sitting in just for the heck of it. After day three, the other two guys' heads were spinning. I, on the other hand, had no problem following along and absorbing the information. I guess I'm just good at those sorts of things. I have no doubt that if I were to be thrown into a C5 training course tomorrow, I'd finish and pass the checkride just as easily as the other classmates. This is the reason why I'm so interested in joining the military. I know I got what it takes to cut it. The problem is figuring out whether my hours will convince the Navy/Air Force/Coast Guard, etc, that this how it is...

If your "headwork" is that good, then you'll have no problem making it through the program...but you'll still start at the bottom floor.



So, some follow-on questions for you --

Do you have your degree? (Bachelors is required to get in the door, unless you want to do an ROTC program while getting your Bachelors)

How old are you? (There is an entry age limit for both services)

Does it bother you that your previous civil experience counts for nothing?

Your first steps, if you are interested in either the AF or Navy path, will be to READ THE FORUMS I SUGGESTED for a couple weeks and soak in what people are talking about in the sections that apply to people trying to get selected for OTS/OCS. This will clue you in on what other people are doing, and thus give you an idea as to what you will have to do in the future, too.

 

[alphaone]

Thread Hijack: Hacker or anyone else, do you know the chances the USAF will open ANG/Reserve flying spots to newly commissioned ROTC dudes? I know they did thhis in the past but stopped a few years ago.

 

[frog_flyer]

C17Wannabe over on baseops got an ROTC slot and then got picked up by the Charleston C-17 unit.

I haven't heard if PapaBear USAF is gonna let him go with the Reserves.

 

[butt]

So, some follow-on questions for you --

Do you have your degree? (Bachelors is required to get in the door, unless you want to do an ROTC program while getting your Bachelors)

Yep, four year degree from a state university.

How old are you? (There is an entry age limit for both services)

25 in july

Does it bother you that your previous civil experience counts for nothing?

Eh, a little bit. I really feel my experience will put me ahead of the rest, if not by the numbers in my logbook, then by the knowledge in my head. What I'm most afraid of is that I'll join and get an officer slot, then get screwed out of a pilot slot, but still have a 7+ year commitment to have to follow through with.

 

[MDPilot]

What I'm most afraid of is that I'll join and get an officer slot, then get screwed out of a pilot slot, but still have a 7+ year commitment to have to follow through with.

Actually, unless you complete UPT, it's only a 4 year commitment IIRC. However if this is really a big concern, I submit that you probably shouldn't try for a military pilot slot. It really requires mental commitment to the military part completely seperate from the pilot part.

Mantra: Officer first, Pilot second, The needs of the AF come before your desires.

 

[Hacker15e]

Yep, four year degree from a state university.

Okay, then your avenue in is via OTS (for the AF) or OCS (for the Navy). The Guard or Reserve is also a possibility.

25 in july

In good shape, but time is LIMITED. If you decide you want to do this, you'll need to start working on things within the next 6 months to a year.

Eh, a little bit. I really feel my experience will put me ahead of the rest, if not by the numbers in my logbook, then by the knowledge in my head.

Well, I am going to tell you the opposite: Your experience will only give you a leg up during the first month of academics (Phase 1), then during the first two months or so on the flightline (Phase 2). After that point, your experience will no longer be of much assistance and your classmates will have caught up to you.

None of the guys with time believe that statement when they hear it, so it doesn't surprise me that you think that way. You're going to have to trust those of us who have been there -- who have seen guys just like you go through the process -- when we tell you it won't be an advantage. Again, unless a lot of your 1200 hours was in formation or rooting down at low level and 250 knots, then it won't help you.

A guy in my class was a 4,000 hour COEX pilot who damn near washed out. A guy in the class behind me was a CFI who did very poorly.

The AF flies by rules and procedures that are DIFFERENT than what the FAA teaches/uses. A lot of the time this is where your experience will be a significant negative, since you don't have a good base understanding of those rules and procedures. I saw this CFI I was talking about bust a ride because he refused to fly holding the way the AF wanted him to. In fact, the part that made me laugh was when he was telling his IP that he was WRONG.

The best thing you can do is go into the process without anyone knowing that you have any experience. In fact, it's best if you even think of yourself as a newbie. If you walk in to SUPT making statements like you've made here (e.g. "if I were to be thrown into a C5 training course tomorrow, I'd finish and pass the checkride just as easily as the other classmates."), you will have a difficult time. By the way, another reality check -- you wouldn't pass the checkride just as easily, since you don't know any of the AF regs or rules on flying. Perhaps stick-and-rudder wise you would be fine, but you would be hurting for understanding everything that goes on outside of that.

Now, you WILL BENEFIT from your experience during the early parts of the program. When the rest of your class is trying to figure out how to talk on the radio, you'll be memorizing the finer points of the overhead pattern. When the rest of the class is trying to get their mind around what the hell an ILS is, you'll be pondering the right power setting to set yourself up for the perfect 200-knot penetration.

But, once you start on to the second half of Phase 2, you will no longer have an advantage. Your advantage will be that you didn't have to work quite as hard at the beginning -- which IS a bonus -- but outside of that you'll be hitting the books, practicing 'chair flying', and struggling in the aircraft just like the rest of your classmates.

This is all a USAF-specific perspective, but I'm sure if you posted the same statement on Airwarriors, the Pensacola IPs that are on there would tell you the same thing.

What I'm most afraid of is that I'll join and get an officer slot, then get screwed out of a pilot slot, but still have a 7+ year commitment to have to follow through with.

As MD said, if you don't go through SUPT, your commitment is 4 years.

 

[ETAV8R]

Very good information here. Lets not forget that if you decide to join the Corps (USMC) you will at some time or another learn to be a platoon leader, ground officer. They want you know what the guys on the ground, whom you are protecting, are going through.
I would suggest you focus on ANG/AF reserve/ and maybe Coast Guard. And as has been said, if you fly airlift/transport your time spent with a unit will be more cushy. Never forget you are joining the military. Service to the country comes first.

 

[fish314]

Thread Hijack: Hacker or anyone else, do you know the chances the USAF will open ANG/Reserve flying spots to newly commissioned ROTC dudes? I know they did thhis in the past but stopped a few years ago.

There have been some programs in the past (palace CHASE is the one that I'm thinking of) that have allowed active duty AF guys to go over to the Guard or reserves. I don't know that they've ever allowed guys who haven't even started to pay back their commitment yet to palace CHASE, though. I think that the AF would probably want to get SOME time out of you after ROTC, so I don't think they'd let you go over as a "newly commissioned" ROTC guy. I think those programs usually allow you to shorten your committment, but I think you'd probably still need to serve some of it.

The deal is, though, even if the AF did let you palace CHASE I think you'd still need to get hired by the ANG/Reserve unit that you were interested in. The AF doesn't really "place" people in the Guard/Reserve. The AF people instead leave the AF when their commitments are up, and then they get hired by the Guard unit.

Last thing to think about is that programs like palace CHASE usually come out when the Air Force is trying to get smaller, like it has been trying to do the last several years. But after the Chief of Staff of the AF and the SECAF got fired, they announced that they were going to keep numbers the same. So palace chase type programs may be going away.

 

[Hacker15e]

Fish, you're a current T-6 guy...what are your thoughts on the above topics?