I soloed, but there is a problem

I would echo what Hacker has been saying. Constructive honest feedback will make you a better pilot. What seems to be an industry standard of simply saying "good job" when in fact you didn't do a good job only feeds the misplaced egos of many a pilot. Everyone makes mistakes, and damn near everyone has a "below average" moment or day of flying. When those hickups are burned into your memory with a hard debrief, you tend to not make the same mistakes again. I'd say my best instructors in flight school were the ones who, after a bad flight, tore me apart and then had the experience and savy to explain to me what I had done, why I had done it, and what I should do differently next time. Hard love is sometimes the best way to force improvement.
 
Everyone is below average at some point. Except me, obviously.

But it all earnestness, getting an honest assessment of one's progress shouldn't be a "bad thing". Plenty of guys have taken 100 hours to get a private and then everything fell in to place. Plenty of guys have gotten a license in 40.1 hours and lived just long enough to be dig a smoking hole. The problem with the "everyone can be President" mentality isn't that it makes Losers feel like Winners, it's that it perpetuates the insane myth that everyone shares the same skills, abilities, and attributes (And thus that there even ARE "Winners" and "Losers"). This, perhaps counterintuitively, does no favors to either the "below average" guy or the "above average" one.

How many guys who "just get it" in terms of stick n rudder have been saved by a guy who knows Weather, or FARs, or Company Policies, or what have you? How many of you have met a guy who can fly the paint off an airplane but needs to be "reigned in" for passenger comfort, or needs to be "counseled" to shave or wear deoderant?

Now, that said, IMHO, while this thread is valuable, the OP lives under a bridge and eats billygoats.
 
WacoFan said:
Ok guys...I'm not understanding why the "norm" to solo is now between 20-30 hours. Can someone explain to me what has changed since the mid 80's that now make 20-30 hours the new "norm" for solo? Not criticising at all, just curious. Seems high compared to when I was learning to fly. Thanks in advance.
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That really depends on the situation, but here's a few things:
As mojo mentioned, there is a rather lengthy list of things that MUST be done before solo. I don't know what pre-solo requirements were in the 80s, but I would be willing to bet they were less stringent.

Also, training in a typical trainer now (at least the place I taught) involves more than just firing it up, checking the mags, and heading around the patch-shoot, in a G1000 plane it takes a few times for a student just to get the hang of changing the radio frequencies.

Today, a lot of training is done at pilot factories which tend to be very very cautious about soloing people and require stuff like passing a stage check on pre-solo maneuvers. I know where I worked some of the pre-solo requirements to pass the stage check were practically Private Pilot level stuff. Not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing (that's another thread) but it just is and it's the way that I think pilot mills tend to be.

I also think that the students themselves today have a little to do with it. I would bet that your average flight student today has a little less experience with motorized vehicles and even hand-eye coordination (outside of fishing the remote out of the couch cushions) than the flight student of 30 years ago. I could be way off base on this one though.
 
Flight Simulator is NOT the way to go. I found that out the hard way...

I always thought that FS would teach me everything. Hell, it can teach you how to program a 747 FMC, but what the hell is that going to do for you if you're flying a single engine prop?

Although it can help you with learning a GPS, some instruments and that small stuff; just don't rely on it.

Also, if you do FS too much, you may get into some bad habits and then start using them in real life, possibly what you are doing already.

Good luck! I hope I helped you out! :)
 
Roger said:
That really depends on the situation, but here's a few things:
As mojo mentioned, there is a rather lengthy list of things that MUST be done before solo. I don't know what pre-solo requirements were in the 80s, but I would be willing to bet they were less stringent.

Also, training in a typical trainer now (at least the place I taught) involves more than just firing it up, checking the mags, and heading around the patch-shoot, in a G1000 plane it takes a few times for a student just to get the hang of changing the radio frequencies.

Today, a lot of training is done at pilot factories which tend to be very very cautious about soloing people and require stuff like passing a stage check on pre-solo maneuvers. I know where I worked some of the pre-solo requirements to pass the stage check were practically Private Pilot level stuff. Not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing (that's another thread) but it just is and it's the way that I think pilot mills tend to be.

I also think that the students themselves today have a little to do with it. I would bet that your average flight student today has a little less experience with motorized vehicles and even hand-eye coordination (outside of fishing the remote out of the couch cushions) than the flight student of 30 years ago. I could be way off base on this one though.
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I think it was more up to the CFI's discretion in the 80's (and before). As long as the CFI felt safe, then you were released for solo. I don't recall a formal, Federally mandated list of things to be accomplished prior to solo.

As for "just learning how to change frequencies" - I certainly hear you. I flew from a controlled field, right under IAH's airspace, but the radios were not complex - Cessna radios, or KX-170B's were the nav/coms and that wasn't too complex.

I agree that people probably had more mechanical aptitude a long time ago and that may well help.
 
WacoFan said:
Ok guys...I'm not understanding why the "norm" to solo is now between 20-30 hours. Can someone explain to me what has changed since the mid 80's that now make 20-30 hours the new "norm" for solo? Not criticising at all, just curious. Seems high compared to when I was learning to fly. Thanks in advance.
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I solo'd in 16 hours, i'm no bob Hoover but I don't think a simple 172 is all that difficult to keep ahead of
 
First of all....no matter what...do not give up flying!!!

Maybe you should give up on your instructor and get a new one.

you might just need some extra time comparing to others...which is completely fine.

Remember..you will do fine!!! When I was working on my PPL..sometimes I was thinking of giving up..now I'm working on my CFI...:
 
The assumption is "flying is so easy even a caveman can do it". Or with enough money anyone can overcome any obstacle on the path to becoming a pilot.

Not true.

Some people should not fly. Some people should not do surgery. Some people should not be Police Officers. Some people should not work with small children. The list goes on and on.

Sadly in flying we assume money and time can solve any problem. If you have been in the business long enough you know that's not true and the end results are usually tragic because we will not stand up and police the pilot force and tell someone they can't cut it. You will not find a real assesment in the civil world because there is a conflict between money flow and the truth. If you want to really test yourself, if it's an option, go in the military.

Short of that if a pilot finds themselves being told they are not getting it, listen. Change instructors, get a second, third opinion. Caution however if you simply find someone to tell you what you want to hear for a price, the disservice is to you.

To the OP, you have not been at it long enough to know. It takes more time. If you press on and bust your PPL, Comm, ME, ATP; If multiple instructors tell you you are below average; If you end up with a bunch of close calls, ATC telephone calls, get violated, have an aircraft incident, then you should think about hanging it up.......

Sadly, we have pilots flying around the system today with all of the above and more. No one has the guts to tell them to stop then after the accident everyone wonders why the pilot was allowed to continue.
 
Who cares if the instructor is giving him some stern constructive criticism? Saying that everyone should solo in xxx number of hours is crazy. Time doesn't matter, proficiency does.

When doing my debrief and filling out a students training folder to track course progress, I rate my students based on their ability. On the form that I go over with them after every flight there is a grading scale that goes from 1-5 ....1 being Excellent and 5 being below acceptable standards. I go through everything from radio comms, to maneuvers etc and grade each. I will tell them right then and there during the debrief if their flying is below average. I tell them what they can work on and how to improve, but usually it just takes time for it to "click".

I have also told one of my students that has very horrible study habits that if his dad (who is paying for his flight training) comes in to check on his progress, I will tell him very bluntly the students below average habits.
 
WacoFan said:
I think it was more up to the CFI's discretion in the 80's (and before). As long as the CFI felt safe, then you were released for solo. I don't recall a formal, Federally mandated list of things to be accomplished prior to solo.
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There has always been a Federal List; 61.87 specifies what must be trained prior to solo.

But the world has become more "liable-conscious", and flight schools require more 'documentation' of the required training, which affects the CFI's decision, as well as independent CFI's, who have become more aware of personal liability than we were many years ago.

Plus, with all the traffic, it just takes way longer to do anything.

Plus, the students are different. In the beginning, anybody who wanted to learn to fly, wanted to learn. They were eager to suck up all the knowledge they could get their sponge-like brains around.

Now, students are more like, here i am, learn me. ...and that just takes way longer.
 
Couple of things still going through my head:

  1. If the CFI thought the student was "well below average"...what was he doing soloing the student? This still makes no sense to me. Part of me would love to teach someday...but I'm frankly terrified of signing off someone for solo - that, to me, would be an incredibly scary thing to do. If the student sucks so bad, why'd the CFI solo him?
  2. As a follow on to the question above - could the CFI be milking the student, even if he is "well below average" simply to get hours/make money? By telling the father this, is the CFI "pre-selling" the idea that it will take LOTS more money, and more duel, to get the boy up to speed? Something isn't making sense to me.
  3. For those advocating "tough love" - I hear you and you make sense - I agree. I just think that in this case that isn't what is occuring. Based on what the poster stated it was a generic "well below average" said to the father, not the student. What purpose does this serve to make the student better?
  4. It could well be that the student is not suited for flying and is "below average". But, what if the CFI is in fact "well below average". At the FBO I used to work at years ago (we were doing primary in Jenny's) - we had a guy come after 20 hrs at another flight school. Confidence was shot, nervous in the airplane, etc. Wanted to fly but was all hooched up about stuff. We got him squared away pretty quickly and it was mostly the result of a really hideous instructor - the student actually did pretty well in the airplane if he wasn't being screamed at.
I think some of the posts about "maybe this isn't for you" could be a tad premature. My opinion (worth less than others here because I'm not a CFI) would be to take a flight at another FBO, or barring that, with another instuctor with a different temperment. See how you do with him/her. Part of the problem could be that you are used to being yelled at/berated by the current CFI - kind of like a dog that's used to being kicked.
 
Dang, three pages deep, no response from the OP and it is still going.

BTW, I solo'd in 8 hours, no previous time, no flight sim, lessons 2 times a week. Followed the PTS and FAA part 61, which btw does not mention that the required items be done to any standard:
§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.
(c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight, a student pilot must have:

(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model of aircraft to be flown; and

(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.​
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Not sure what all the fuss is, if you are not happy with your instructor then tell him. He can't change his teaching style, if he is that flexible, or steer you in the correct direction unless he knows there is a problem. Communication is key to flying and you need to learn that now.

Also, you should communicate with the community you started this thread with....otherwise your troll gets fatter and future posts hold no.....hhmmm, what is the word I'm looking for?
 
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