I need clarification on flight time limits

[E_Dawg]

Here are some questions regarding exceeding the maximum scheduled flight time limit for 121.

I've heard different answers depending on who I ask, so if I could please get this clarified once and for all :bandit:

Situation 1:
Day scheduled for 7.5 hrs
Before the last leg starts you are at 7 hrs, and the last leg is scheduled for 1.5 hrs. Are you legal to start, knowing you will exceed 8 hrs?

Situation 2:
Week scheduled for 28.5 hrs
You've flown the scheduled trips for the week, and before the last day you've blocked 26 hours (as scheduled, you should have blocked 24). The last day is scheduled for 5 hours total. Are you legal to start the last day? Legal to complete the day?

Situation 3:
Day scheduled for 7.5 hrs, and the first leg was canceled due to weather
Before the last leg starts you are at 7 hrs, and the leg is scheduled for 1.5 hrs. Your first leg that day was canceled, but later that day you pulled a jetblue when your gate was occupied, and you ended up blocking way more than scheduled. Can you fly the last leg?

 

[kellwolf]

Here's the way I interpret this, so take it with a grain of salt. Others feel free to chime in...

Here are some questions regarding exceeding the maximum scheduled flight time limit for 121.

I've heard different answers depending on who I ask, so if I could please get this clarified once and for all :bandit:

Situation 1:
Day scheduled for 7.5 hrs
Before the last leg starts you are at 7 hrs, and the last leg is scheduled for 1.5 hrs. Are you legal to start, knowing you will exceed 8 hrs?

The key word here is "scheduled." We can't be "scheduled" more than 8 hours in a day. I've gone over 8 due to WX delays before. If I were pushing it that close, though, I'd probably so no go on the last leg. Same goes with a 16 hour duty limit. We can exceed that if we're already in the air, but if we haven't gotten off the ground yet, we have to go back to the gate.

Situation 2:
Week scheduled for 28.5 hrs
You've flown the scheduled trips for the week, and before the last day you've blocked 26 hours (as scheduled, you should have blocked 24). The last day is scheduled for 5 hours total. Are you legal to start the last day? Legal to complete the day?

Had this a few weeks ago. I got the call from scheduling to try to shave 13 minutes off the day before or they would have to DH an FO to PHL and I'd be riding in the back on the way home. This one depends on who the Chief Pilot is around here. When the old guy was around, this would be a "no." With the new guy looking at the rule, you're legal to start the day.

Situation 3:
Day scheduled for 7.5 hrs, and the first leg was canceled due to weather
Before the last leg starts you are at 7 hrs, and the leg is scheduled for 1.5 hrs. Your first leg that day was canceled, but later that day you pulled a jetblue when your gate was occupied, and you ended up blocking way more than scheduled. Can you fly the last leg?

[/quote]

See answer #1 above. A lot of these duty regs are about as grey as storm clouds and subject to all kinds of interpretations.

 

[BobDDuck]

The interpretation seems to change from time to time and company to company.

Situation 1:
Day scheduled for 7.5 hrs
Before the last leg starts you are at 7 hrs, and the last leg is scheduled for 1.5 hrs. Are you legal to start, knowing you will exceed 8 hrs?

In this case you would be good to go as long as they don't change your schedule at all during that day. Legal to start your day (scheduled for less then 8 hours) legal to finish (as long as nothing changes). One thing to watch is that if you divert somewhere during the day and then continue on to your destination with the same flight number you are legal to go over the 8 hours. However, if they change the flight number when you continue then it would count as a change to your schedule and hence you couldn't go over 8 hours due to that event.

Situation 2:
Week scheduled for 28.5 hrs
You've flown the scheduled trips for the week, and before the last day you've blocked 26 hours (as scheduled, you should have blocked 24). The last day is scheduled for 5 hours total. Are you legal to start the last day? Legal to complete the day?

This is the one I'm not sure about. The way it seems to be normally done is the same as a 8 hour thing. If you nothing changes on your schedule then you are good to go. However, the company I am at will not let you fly more then 30 hours in 7 days even if your schedule hasn't changed (not that I'm complaining). They generally keep pretty good track of it and will drop round trips during the day so you don't time out at the end and get to go home early.

Situation 3:
Day scheduled for 7.5 hrs, and the first leg was canceled due to weather
Before the last leg starts you are at 7 hrs, and the leg is scheduled for 1.5 hrs. Your first leg that day was canceled, but later that day you pulled a jetblue when your gate was occupied, and you ended up blocking way more than scheduled. Can you fly the last leg?

Maybe... does a canceled leg count as a schedule modification? I don't really know. If it does, then you can't go. If not, then you are good to fly it.

 

[BobDDuck]

Added:

I knew I had this somewhere.

See, join ALPA... get good stuff.

ALPA Duty Time Regs

 

[wheelsup]

This is the one I'm not sure about. The way it seems to be normally done is the same as a 8 hour thing. If you nothing changes on your schedule then you are good to go.

Here is ALPA's interpretation:


Q: A flight crew member is scheduled to fly five hours per day for six days. Prior to starting the schedule on the sixth day, the flight time has been extended by two hours due to weather. Is the crewmember “legal” to begin the last day’s scheduled flight knowing that he/she will exceed 30 hours of flight time before completing the flight schedule?

A: No, the crewmember may not complete all of the scheduled flights on the sixth day since he/she would be scheduled to exceed 30 hours of flight within seven consecutive days. However, the crewmember may fly a portion of the schedule up to 30 hours, or be rescheduled to fly up to 30 hours, which in this example would allow the carrier to schedule the crewmember for three hours of flight on the sixth day.


My Company does the same thing yours does - they'll start dropping legs on the last day to make you "legal" to start it. Although I wish I had that problem, I've never run into a 30/7 problem here. Schedules are just too inefficient.

*Ha, looks like you beat me to the punch. What I posted came from where you got your link. If only I could type faster...

 

[zmiller4]

Situation 1:
Day scheduled for 7.5 hrs
Before the last leg starts you are at 7 hrs, and the last leg is scheduled for 1.5 hrs. Are you legal to start, knowing you will exceed 8 hrs?

You're good to go on this one, at least in the Skywest interpretation, as long as the day has the same trips as was originally scheduled. We run into this one a fair amount.

Situation 2:
Week scheduled for 28.5 hrs
You've flown the scheduled trips for the week, and before the last day you've blocked 26 hours (as scheduled, you should have blocked 24). The last day is scheduled for 5 hours total. Are you legal to start the last day? Legal to complete the day?

I'm also unsure as to this one, but I think that if you're scheduled to go over 30 on the last day, you're not legal for it. At Skywest, I'm pretty sure they'll pull you off the last leg or two in this situation. If that last day was scheduled for 4hrs (which would put you right at 30), you'd be legal to finish even if you went over by a half hour on one of the legs and thus broke the 30.

Situation 3:
Day scheduled for 7.5 hrs, and the first leg was canceled due to weather
Before the last leg starts you are at 7 hrs, and the leg is scheduled for 1.5 hrs. Your first leg that day was canceled, but later that day you pulled a jetblue when your gate was occupied, and you ended up blocking way more than scheduled. Can you fly the last leg?

Like Bob, I'm not sure--I think it might be OK since the total scheduled flight time is still less than 8hrs and you haven't added anything on, but I'm not sure.

 

[wheelsup]

Like Bob, I'm not sure--I think it might be OK since the total scheduled flight time is still less than 8hrs and you haven't added anything on, but I'm not sure.

I'd wonder why the FAA would have a problem with this. Even if they counted your cx flight as a schedule modification you are still legal to start because the delay happened on a subsequent flight.

 

[BobDDuck]

Just for discussion then...

you have 6 legs (inbound, 2 turns and an outbound)

day is scheduled for 7:30.

You overblock your first leg by enough to send you over 8 hours. At this point you are still good for the entire day.

Your first turn cancels. (back under 8 hours now)

Your second turn WAY over blocks and you are back over 8 hours again.

Can you fly the last leg?

I guess my question is does the canceled leg count as a schedule modification? And furthermore if it is in fact a modification, you were legal after the mod for a period of time so does the schedule change even come into effect when you will be scheduled to go back over 8 hours after your second turn?

I don't think a cancellation counts UNLESS you were so far over 8 hours after a leg BEFORE the cancellation that dropping that leg doesn't even bring you below 8 hours. Then I guess the cancellation would be modifying your schedule and you would be over 8 hours so you couldn't do it.

 

[wheelsup]

Your first turn cancels. (back under 8 hours now)

Your second turn WAY over blocks and you are back over 8 hours again.

Can you fly the last leg?

IMO yes because you started the legs after the cx flight still scheduled less than 8 hours, so there isn't even an issue.

Just because there was a modification during the day doesn't mean you have to stay <8 hours from then on. For instance, on one turn you get to the hub and scheduling reroutes you. As long as the new pairing you hold in your hand has you scheduled for <8 hours, you're good to go. They couldn't however give you an additional 4.5 hours of scheduled flying if you've already FAR blocked 4 hours that day.

I don't think a cancellation counts UNLESS you were so far over 8 hours after a leg BEFORE the cancellation that dropping that leg doesn't even bring you below 8 hours. Then I guess the cancellation would be modifying your schedule and you would be over 8 hours so you couldn't do it.

But how much sense does that make? You could fly it if you didn't have a canceled flight but a flight cancels and suddenly you are illegal? To fly less? I don't think the FAA would see it as illegal, but I don't have anything to back that up.

I personally feel a "modification" would be like the Company rerouting you sometime during the day, for instance dropping the last turn and outbound flight for something else. Having a canceled flight doesn't modify my schedule more than sitting on the ramp in CLT during a thunderstorm for 2 hours.

 

[E_Dawg]

Here is ALPA's interpretation:


Q: A flight crew member is scheduled to fly five hours per day for six days. Prior to starting the schedule on the sixth day, the flight time has been extended by two hours due to weather. Is the crewmember “legal” to begin the last day’s scheduled flight knowing that he/she will exceed 30 hours of flight time before completing the flight schedule?

A: No, the crewmember may not complete all of the scheduled flights on the sixth day since he/she would be scheduled to exceed 30 hours of flight within seven consecutive days. However, the crewmember may fly a portion of the schedule up to 30 hours, or be rescheduled to fly up to 30 hours, which in this example would allow the carrier to schedule the crewmember for three hours of flight on the sixth day.

Thanks for the answers so far; I've read this interpretation but here's another question:

Say at the beginning of the 7th day you've blocked 23.5 hrs and have a schedule assignment of 6 block hrs. At the end of the last leg you're at 29.0 hrs with 1.5 hrs to go. Are you legal to fly the last leg?

I would guess yes because you were legal to start the day and therefore legal to finish, sound good?

 

[kellwolf]

Our current CP's opinion is that yeah, you'd be legal to finish the day since you were still legal to start. I was skating on thin ice at the beginning of this month. When I started the next to last day, I was scheduled 30.7 including the last day. After some creative flying and short cuts, I was at 26.3 at the end of the day, leaving me with 29.8 if I flew what I was scheduled the next day. Therefore, legal to go the next day. I wound up with 30.0 in 7 days.

Now, if you're looking for a be all end all answer to the FAR interpretations, I think you've come to the wrong place.

 

[zmiller4]

Thanks for the answers so far; I've read this interpretation but here's another question:

Say at the beginning of the 7th day you've blocked 23.5 hrs and have a schedule assignment of 6 block hrs. At the end of the last leg you're at 29.0 hrs with 1.5 hrs to go. Are you legal to fly the last leg?

I would guess yes because you were legal to start the day and therefore legal to finish, sound good?

Yes. As I understand it, the only time "legal to start, legal to finish" doesn't apply is with 16hr duty limits.

 

[E_Dawg]

Now, if you're looking for a be all end all answer to the FAR interpretations, I think you've come to the wrong place.

Yeah, well thanks for the info it's a lot clearer for me now. I basically learn this stuff by running through situations in my head, and I'd rather do it now than a week from now when I'm scheduled for nearly 30 in 7.

 

[CFIse]

Yeah, well thanks for the info it's a lot clearer for me now. I basically learn this stuff by running through situations in my head, and I'd rather do it now than a week from now when I'm scheduled for nearly 30 in 7.

Basically it's "legal to start, legal to finish" on a daily basis. That is to say, if you're legal to start the day, you are legal to finish it. That's true for the 8 hour rule, the 30 in 7, 100 in month and 1,000 in year for the day in question.

EXCEPT - if there is a schedule change you must stop and re-compute, and re-compute everything and then, once again, if you're legal to continue you're legal to finish. It is NOT a schedule change if a leg is interrupted as long as you're continuing to try and finish the leg. In the vernacular as long as the flight number remains the same, it doesn't matter how many times you divert or how many airports you end up flying to, as long as you're still working on going from A to B you're still on the original schedule.

This is only on a per day basis. Some places will tell you that if you were legal to start the sequence with a 30 in 7 but you run over in the middle then you were still "legal to start, legal to finish", but that is wrong. It's just on a per day basis. If you're legal to start the day, you're legal to finish it, but if you were legal to start the week no such rule applies.

As pointed out - ALPA has an excellent guide to all this - I have not run into a situation that the ALPA guide does not cover. Trying to convince a crew tracker that ALPA is right and they are wrong is another matter - but there you go.

Oh and finally - this is FLIGHT time only - duty time is different, and there is NO concept of "legal to start legal to finish" with duty time with the one exception of an unanticipated in-flight delay on the final leg.