I made my decision

[eagledriver101]

I agree, that is just madness. Do some of you guys even understand how much debt that is?

Let me just tell you something without it (hopefully) sounding like bragging. I have 280 hrs, commercial/instrument single/multi with about $1,300 in flight training debt on a 12 month, 0% interest credit card. The card will be paid off before any interest accumulates. I'm taking my CFI checkride in early July and will be paying cash for all of that. My car (2002) is paid off, and I have zero credit card/consumer debt (with the exception of the $1,300 stated above).

I have a total of about $24k in debt from my engineering degree, and that's a 3% interest loan. I have to come up with about $150/month for that. This has put me in a very nice position to move into professional aviation, and I'm not really that much older that you will be when you're done (I just turned 30). There were times when I felt very impatient and wanted to just get the big loan and quit my boring job, but I am SO GLAD right now that I had enough patience to do it right.

Reconsider that debt... Crunch the numbers and see how much you'll have to come up with each month and how long you'll have to do that for. Waiting a couple of years to do it cheaper and slower may seem much more worth it.

I am not sure I get you. You have 280 hrs of flight time, with those ratings, and you only spent 1300$$ either you know somebody, your full of chit, or I’m misunderstanding you. Do you only have 1300 left to pay? How much did you spend?

I did some research on flight schools here. And here is the information/adds:

“Air-center of Slat Lake City, Full service FBO and flight school. Jet Connect and accelerated flight training programs available. Don't waste time on the ground at International. Close practice area's, with no traffic control delays. (For the ratings, and time FT I want.. They want 65,000).

American Aviation
“Flight School, private through ATP. Most economical value in Salt Lake City.
(Quoted with time, and ratings I’m getting from ATP (55,000 to 60,000$)

Cornerstone Aviation
“Utah's premier flight schools. FAA Approved Part 141 schools in three locations (SLC, Provo, Ogden). Training is to Airline Standards. CSA is for the discerning pilot who only wants the best. Learning at towered airports provides the ultimate experience” (50,000 to 55,000K) and that’s only 35hrs multi included.

FLY AVIATION

“GUARANTEED JOB INTERVIEW WITHIN THE DELTA CONNECTION SYSTEM. The best accelerated courses for all your ratings, with the cheapest rates in the USA. ß-- Bull chit, cheapest, 29,995,, but that’s no Multi, and they exclusively fly the Cessna 172 skyhawk, (AWESOME PLANE) But I didn’t like there program. And, their terms state, Flight Training Cost is subject to change during your flight training.

The list goes on on, ATP compared to what’s around me, ATP looks really good, one, they have been around, and have awesome programs. And one more thing none of these schools offers Jet Transition: High Altitude Endorsement with High Performance Endorsements.
And you guys need to stop thinking I am doing this for sonority because I don’t need/want to get on with a regional carrier as soon as I graduate.. I am going for the accelerated training. I don’t want to spend 2 years doing, that is retarded I think..

 

[bdhill1979]

I am not sure I get you. You have 280 hrs of flight time, with those ratings, and you only spent 1300$$ either you know somebody, your full of chit, or I’m misunderstanding you. Do you only have 1300 left to pay? How much did you spend?

I did some research on flight schools here. And here is the information/adds:

“Air-center of Slat Lake City, Full service FBO and flight school. Jet Connect and accelerated flight training programs available. Don't waste time on the ground at International. Close practice area's, with no traffic control delays. (For the ratings, and time FT I want.. They want 65,000).

American Aviation
“Flight School, private through ATP. Most economical value in Salt Lake City.
(Quoted with time, and ratings I’m getting from ATP (55,000 to 60,000$)

Cornerstone Aviation
“Utah's premier flight schools. FAA Approved Part 141 schools in three locations (SLC, Provo, Ogden). Training is to Airline Standards. CSA is for the discerning pilot who only wants the best. Learning at towered airports provides the ultimate experience” (50,000 to 55,000K) and that’s only 35hrs multi included.

FLY AVIATION

“GUARANTEED JOB INTERVIEW WITHIN THE DELTA CONNECTION SYSTEM. The best accelerated courses for all your ratings, with the cheapest rates in the USA. ß-- Bull chit, cheapest, 29,995,, but that’s no Multi, and they exclusively fly the Cessna 172 skyhawk, (AWESOME PLANE) But I didn’t like there program. And, their terms state, Flight Training Cost is subject to change during your flight training.

The list goes on on, ATP compared to what’s around me, ATP looks really good, one, they have been around, and have awesome programs. And one more thing none of these schools offers Jet Transition: High Altitude Endorsement with High Performance Endorsements.
And you guys need to stop thinking I am doing this for sonority because I don’t need/want to get on with a regional carrier as soon as I graduate.. I am going for the accelerated training. I don’t want to spend 2 years doing, that is retarded I think..

There are a lot more schools in the area than that, and they don't cost that much. I think you should do some more looking locally before you make a final decision.

 

[eagledriver101]

Well... Getting your degree at 24 isn't that exceptional. I screwed around a lot in high school and also got my B.S. a month after my 24th birthday. A lot of my friends in school were 22/23. Made me feel kinda dumb

Personally I think there are a lot of good reasons for taking your time. As I said in my previous post, making money at your "real" job while getting more bang for your buck at the local FBO is one great reason. The other big reason is the varied experience you'll get. By spreading my flight experience out over a couple of years, I've been able to do aerobatics, mountain flying in Colorado and California, island flying in FL, experiencing international flying to the Bahamas, all kinds of different weather experiences, etc.

This is all good stuff that I think will make me a better CFI and hopefully a more well rounded commercial pilot. I don't see how somebody could really experience too much in one of those quickie courses like ATP has.

While not getting a degree while your 24 may not seem exceptional, I did it working full time, with a wife and kid. But what is exceptional is I will have two degrees at 25. With now 2 kids, still working full time. I think that’s pretty damn exceptional. I have been flying sense I was 19. I have seen a lot, I flown in Hawaii, Alaska, and down the coast of California. In September, I am flying with my uncle in his Cessna 414 for a multiple cross country leg to Atlanta, and back. I believe I am a well rounded pilot, and I don’t think going ATP well make anything but well rounded pilots.

I really don’t understand why some of you have such boners for local FBO training, I understand some of you its all about cost, and smelling the rouses along the way. Yes 50k is a lot of money, but if I didn’t think I could pay it back I wouldn’t do it. My wifes makes 45k a year; I make a bit more than that now. I’ll have two 4 yr degrees very soon. If chit it the fan financially I could land a good job in no time.

 

[wrxpilot]

I am not sure I get you. You have 280 hrs of flight time, with those ratings, and you only spent 1300$$ either you know somebody, your full of chit, or I’m misunderstanding you. Do you only have 1300 left to pay? How much did you spend?

No, of course that's not the cost for everything. I only have $1,300 in debt, and that is 0% interest debt. Like I said in that same post, I paid CASH as I went for basically all of my flight training. It did take me longer, as I started when I was 27 years old and am now 30.

Not sure how much I spent exactly, but roughly (with examiner fees included) it was:
Private (49 hours) - $4500
Instrument (20 hours) - $4800
Commercial (single) (10 hours) - $2000
Commercial (multi add on) (5 hours) - $1700

I probably spend about $15,000 on building time by doing cross countries with my family and friends. So a rough total would be about:
$26,000 plus about $500 for books and stuff. Some things I could've done cheaper, but I definitely could've gone much more expensive.

I had free CFI instruction for my Private and Commercial single, but really that's only a couple thousand dollars of savings. The big savings came from using Microsoft Flight Simulator for my instrument, and always using beaters for my flight training. They weren't always pretty with glass displays, GPS, and autopilots, but they were always safe and worked just fine. I also made sure that the time building/pleasure flying involved cross country flights that would count for the commercial requirements. I also did some of my IFR training in a complex airplane - that kills two birds with one stone as well.

The other thing that really helped shave time and costs off my training was being very self sufficient for studying ground school items. With the exception of some initial private pilot stuff, I have never required much at all in the way of ground instruction - there are some fantastic books and internet resources out there.

 

[wrxpilot]

While not getting a degree while your 24 may not seem exceptional, I did it working full time, with a wife and kid. But what is exceptional is I will have two degrees at 25. With now 2 kids, still working full time. I think that’s pretty damn exceptional. I have been flying sense I was 19. I have seen a lot, I flown in Hawaii, Alaska, and down the coast of California. In September, I am flying with my uncle in his Cessna 414 for a multiple cross country leg to Atlanta, and back. I believe I am a well rounded pilot, and I don’t think going ATP well make anything but well rounded pilots.

I also worked my way through school, paid ALL of my expenses, lead a Formula SAE race team my senior year in college, and graduated with high academic honors with a mechanical engineering degree from one of the top engineering schools in the country. While I'm proud of the accompolishment, I've met many people that did far more than me. You've obviously done what a lot of people could never do, but there are also a lot of people that can do that and more. I guess I just try not to get too cocky about what I've done, as there's always somebody that has done it better.

I really don’t understand why some of you have such boners for local FBO training, I understand some of you its all about cost, and smelling the rouses along the way. Yes 50k is a lot of money, but if I didn’t think I could pay it back I wouldn’t do it. My wifes makes 45k a year; I make a bit more than that now. I’ll have two 4 yr degrees very soon. If chit it the fan financially I could land a good job in no time.

It's your money, do whatever you want with it. Some people are just trying to share with you what they've already seen and experienced. If you are determined to spend $50,000 at ATP, then by all means knock yourself out.

 

[milski]

I am doing the allatp 90 days fast track course for $49,999 in PHX!! I have done a lot research and find this to be a good choice. I have 100hrs flight time, 30hrs PIC/Cross country.

I have been flying sense I was 19. I have seen a lot, I flown in Hawaii, Alaska, and down the coast of California. In September, I am flying with my uncle in his Cessna 414 for a multiple cross country leg to Atlanta, and back. I believe I am a well rounded pilot, and I don’t think going ATP well make anything but well rounded pilots.

All that in 100 hours/30 PIC/XCountry? Hats off to you. :rawk:

 

[eagledriver101]

There are a lot more schools in the area than that, and they don't cost that much. I think you should do some more looking locally before you make a final decision.

Ya I know there are many schools, I have looked, there are much more, from your local mome and pop that own one pa-28, to your more davanced 20 aircraft fleet schools I have looked around. And I'm not getting more for my money, I am getting less. I have lived here, and started flying 7 years ago. Trust me I have looked, and yes there are really good FBO's here, I just really like the ATP route. ATP is obviously doing something right becasue their still in buisness. And I have heard many great things about ATP from none bias thrid partys. My CFi graduted from there 4 years ago, flew with Mesa for two, and now flys A320's for JetBlue Airways.

 

[TheAlchemist]

While not getting a degree while your 24 may not seem exceptional, I did it working full time, with a wife and kid. But what is exceptional is I will have two degrees at 25. With now 2 kids, still working full time. I think that’s pretty damn exceptional. I have been flying sense I was 19. I have seen a lot, I flown in Hawaii, Alaska, and down the coast of California. In September, I am flying with my uncle in his Cessna 414 for a multiple cross country leg to Atlanta, and back. I believe I am a well rounded pilot, and I don’t think going ATP well make anything but well rounded pilots.

I really don’t understand why some of you have such boners for local FBO training, I understand some of you its all about cost, and smelling the rouses along the way. Yes 50k is a lot of money, but if I didn’t think I could pay it back I wouldn’t do it. My wifes makes 45k a year; I make a bit more than that now. I’ll have two 4 yr degrees very soon. If chit it the fan financially I could land a good job in no time.

I'm very confused here for mainly 2 reasons:

1 - WHAAA? Your uncle has a ME a/c and you going to ATP??

2 - You say you're finishing your 2nd degree while taking care of 2 kids and working a full time job so I can't you do your OWN accelerated program at a local FBO? It takes dedication and some planning but you can do it!

One of the reasons some people go to ATP is to get away from the every day distractions that shouldn't be a problem for you, right?!?!
Your uncle has a ME so why not build ME time in his plane? Fly with him whenever he's flying the machine.

Just some ideas! Good luck man!

 

[bdhill1979]

Ya I know there are many schools, I have looked, there are much more, from your local mome and pop that own one pa-28, to your more davanced 20 aircraft fleet schools I have looked around. And I'm not getting more for my money, I am getting less. I have lived here, and started flying 7 years ago. Trust me I have looked, and yes there are really good FBO's here, I just really like the ATP route. ATP is obviously doing something right becasue their still in buisness. And I have heard many great things about ATP from none bias thrid partys. My CFi graduted from there 4 years ago, flew with Mesa for two, and now flys A320's for JetBlue Airways.

How is your CFI flying for an Airline?

Every airline pilot I know is contractually forbidden from any other commercial flying, flight instruction included.

 

[TheAlchemist]

How is your CFI flying for an Airline?

:yeahthat:

oops..

 

[Captain_Bob]

How is your CFI flying for an Airline?

Every airline pilot I know is contractually forbidden from any other commercial flying, flight instruction included.

:yeahthat:

oops..

All it takes is a waiver from your Cheif Pilot... I know lot's guys who've done that.

Basically... the CP just doesn't ever want to hear "I've timed out from flying as a CFI so I can't take this 4-day trip."

So... as long as you stay legal... and have prior approval... you are good to go.

Bob

 

[Trip7]

personally I think there are a lot of good reasons for taking your time. As I said in my previous post, making money at your "real" job while getting more bang for your buck at the local FBO is one great reason. The other big reason is the varied experience you'll get. By spreading my flight experience out over a couple of years, I've been able to do aerobatics, mountain flying in Colorado and California, island flying in FL, experiencing international flying to the Bahamas, all kinds of different weather experiences, etc.

This is all good stuff that I think will make me a better CFI and hopefully a more well rounded commercial pilot. I don't see how somebody could really experience too much in one of those quickie courses like ATP has.

This doesn't make sense to me. Do most airline captains send their kids to FBOs? You here about them sending their kids to some big flight school. FBO route is good if you are on a budget or can't obtain a large sum loan. It takes longer, holds your hand, and is cheaper. Me personally would rather take the long term loan and get to the airlines quicker then sweat through a 9-5 job while slowly paying for my training cash down at the local FBO. I think the extra money I'll make at the end of my career by getting in years sooner will surplus the loan amount by far. But thats just me, I hate working a jobs I don't like. Still, I don't understand how FBOing makes you a more rounded pilot.

Like Jtrain said, he'll seen extemely talented pilots come out of ATP and I agree. Im still trying to figure out the hands off steep turn in the seminole like my instructor can do. Now as far as being a more well-rounded pilot, do you want pilots to go take a flight lesson, then go home, sit and think about it a couple days to get that "well rounded" experience? Do you want them to wait a couple months for the leafs to change color so they can get the experience of flying in another season? I don't think many people understand the ATP program. I have seen it for myself. In fact I'm sitting at the VGT location right now typing this. Everyone talks about being well rounded at an FBO but how many of you guys been on literal cross countries from coast to coast encountering hours of IMC along the way? These guys have flown over mountains, coastlines, around thunderstorms and the hold 9 yards. I've heard some of these 90 days guys' experiences and Im jealous I didn't get to do that kind of flying on my cross countries. Hotels, cab rides, rental cars, ALL paid for by the company. What?! You thought flying was just included in the 49k? The guys in my class that I study with here in vegas are staying in a casino hotel, have a Hundai Santa fe with xm radio rental car and arrived on a southwest flight from Riverside. ALL PAID by ATP.

Nevertheless ATP will not hold your hand. You are not paying for your certificates. If you don't come prepared here in Vegas for CFI school they will send you home quick and there goes your money. Then people whine that the 2 year CFI is mean and not professional because the FOI says to be positive. The only person they have to blame is the person in the mirror. Not everyone can do their training ATP style. Its basically like airline groundschool firehouse method for 90 days. CFI school is ultra-firehose. With proper preparation and good study skills you can suceed at ATP be a competent, proficient pilot. Otherwise, look to do your training somewhere with a slower pace. Believe me, I have seen first hand the 90 dayers pack up and go home because they were so lost and behind, it looked as if their pilot career was in a flatspin. As I see 90 day guys struggling here in vegas I have a simple solution for future 90 dayers, start studying for CFI from day one. You have to if you are going to do this all in 90 days. But it is very possible, maybe even more efficient

 

[zmiller4]

This doesn't make sense to me. Do most airline captains send their kids to FBOs? You here about them sending their kids to some big flight school.

How many airline captains do you know? The only big flight school I "here" using captains for advertising is Gulfstream, which is super-interesting because 75% of the pilots giving "testimonials" are on the freaking scab list!! As stingy as most pilots are, I find it hard to believe that you have any real evidence of a lot of them sending their kids to expensive schools and that you aren't just regurgitating some marketing from some school.

Still, I don't understand how FBOing makes you a more rounded pilot.

Generally, it takes a little longer and you accumulate a little more time. That means more experience overall--flying in different seasons, seeing more diverse weather, different in-flight situations, probably flying more than one type of aircraft, etc. What scares me is the idea of a 90-day wonder who starts in Sacramento in June, finishes by July, and gets hired at a regional having never seen a cloud or a 20kt crosswind.

Not everyone can do their training ATP style. Its basically like airline groundschool firehouse method for 90 days.

You know this because you've been to how many airline groundschools?

I'll agree that ATP works really well for some people and not for others...but I think that it has less to do with ability and more to do with what you're looking for from the experience of learning to fly. It's the same with any accelerated program. Some people think that, gosh, it should be fun to learn how to fly airplane! Some of us enjoyed just dinking around sometimes without having to stress about constant checkrides.

 

[Trip7]

Generally, it takes a little longer and you accumulate a little more time. That means more experience overall--flying in different seasons, seeing more diverse weather, different in-flight situations, probably flying more than one type of aircraft, etc.

How many different states have you flown through? Have you flown from LA to JAX back to LA all IFR flight plans, no autopilot, no electric trim, with plenty of IMC along the way? I haven't, but the 90 day guys in my study group have.

What scares me is the idea of a 90-day wonder who starts in Sacramento in June, finishes by July, and gets hired at a regional having never seen a cloud or a 20kt crosswind.

Are you kidding? Did you not read the long post I just did? These guys had more IMC time in one cross country then I have in my logbook. Over a 90 day period of constant flying do you think it won't get windy one day? Especially if you fly coast to coast? I think not.

Some people think that, gosh, it should be fun to learn how to fly airplane! Some of us enjoyed just dinking around sometimes without having to stress about constant checkrides.

Some people think, hey it should be fun to learn how to fly a plane without waiting 2 yrs to get your stuff done. And believe me, they have plenty of time on their cross countries to dink around.

 

[eagledriver101]

I'm very confused here for mainly 2 reasons:

1 - WHAAA? Your uncle has a ME a/c and you going to ATP??

2 - You say you're finishing your 2nd degree while taking care of 2 kids and working a full time job so I can't you do your OWN accelerated program at a local FBO? It takes dedication and some planning but you can do it!

One of the reasons some people go to ATP is to get away from the every day distractions that shouldn't be a problem for you, right?!?!
Your uncle has a ME so why not build ME time in his plane? Fly with him whenever he's flying the machine.

Just some ideas! Good luck man!

Thanks, I cant log time in his plane, PIC or SIC, + he's no CFI... I have about 15 hrs in it but cant log it. Secondly he lives in CA and comes down twice a year.

 

[eagledriver101]

How is your CFI flying for an Airline?

Every airline pilot I know is contractually forbidden from any other commercial flying, flight instruction included.

He 'was' my first CFI, he is not now. He got me to my PPL. Clear?

 

[Captain_Bob]

I agree. Im still trying to figure out the hands off steep turn in the seminole like my instructor can do.

Easy peasy...

One full turn of trim at half bank... one more full turn of trim at full bank.

Don't forget to reverse it on the roll out!

Can't believe I remember that!

Bob

 

[bdhill1979]

He 'was' my first CFI, he is not now. He got me to my PPL. Clear?

So in four years he has gone from a CFI out of ATP, to a Mesa RJ pilot, to a Jet Blue A320 Pilot? Thats pretty damn fast.

 

[eagledriver101]

Sorry, I always associate Jetblue and Airbus it comes out almost automaticly, he flys the Embraer right now.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

This doesn't make sense to me. Do most airline captains send their kids to FBOs? You here about them sending their kids to some big flight school. FBO route is good if you are on a budget or can't obtain a large sum loan. It takes longer, holds your hand, and is cheaper. Me personally would rather take the long term loan and get to the airlines quicker then sweat through a 9-5 job while slowly paying for my training cash down at the local FBO. I think the extra money I'll make at the end of my career by getting in years sooner will surplus the loan amount by far. But thats just me, I hate working a jobs I don't like. Still, I don't understand how FBOing makes you a more rounded pilot.

Like Jtrain said, he'll seen extemely talented pilots come out of ATP and I agree. Im still trying to figure out the hands off steep turn in the seminole like my instructor can do. Now as far as being a more well-rounded pilot, do you want pilots to go take a flight lesson, then go home, sit and think about it a couple days to get that "well rounded" experience? Do you want them to wait a couple months for the leafs to change color so they can get the experience of flying in another season? I don't think many people understand the ATP program. I have seen it for myself. In fact I'm sitting at the VGT location right now typing this. Everyone talks about being well rounded at an FBO but how many of you guys been on literal cross countries from coast to coast encountering hours of IMC along the way? These guys have flown over mountains, coastlines, around thunderstorms and the hold 9 yards. I've heard some of these 90 days guys' experiences and Im jealous I didn't get to do that kind of flying on my cross countries. Hotels, cab rides, rental cars, ALL paid for by the company. What?! You thought flying was just included in the 49k? The guys in my class that I study with here in vegas are staying in a casino hotel, have a Hundai Santa fe with xm radio rental car and arrived on a southwest flight from Riverside. ALL PAID by ATP.

Nevertheless ATP will not hold your hand. You are not paying for your certificates. If you don't come prepared here in Vegas for CFI school they will send you home quick and there goes your money. Then people whine that the 2 year CFI is mean and not professional because the FOI says to be positive. The only person they have to blame is the person in the mirror. Not everyone can do their training ATP style. Its basically like airline groundschool firehouse method for 90 days. CFI school is ultra-firehose. With proper preparation and good study skills you can suceed at ATP be a competent, proficient pilot. Otherwise, look to do your training somewhere with a slower pace. Believe me, I have seen first hand the 90 dayers pack up and go home because they were so lost and behind, it looked as if their pilot career was in a flatspin. As I see 90 day guys struggling here in vegas I have a simple solution for future 90 dayers, start studying for CFI from day one. You have to if you are going to do this all in 90 days. But it is very possible, maybe even more efficient

Lol, your post is so funny. When and where did ATP do a blanket party on you, tape your eye lids open and subject you to their propaganda machine!

:laff: