I don't want to be "that guy" but...

Cal Goat

Cal Goat

Prestige Worldwide™
tomorrow I'm supposed to start a trip with a fairly senior captain who has been known to randomly nod-off during flight. And not just cruise flight. I think it might be sleep apnea related because he's heavy, but I honestly don't know.

I've traditionally bid-avoided him because the one time I flew with him, he came across as insane and/or just really obtuse; but now we're so short staffed that I can't drop the trip or trade.

I called my CP and explained the situation (not the sleep thing because I personally haven't witnessed it) and he suggested that I just try to have a personal discussion with him prior to starting the trip to see if we can communicate better. I'm willing to try, but I feel like if he passes out on me, I can't continue the trip.

This is because of a personal standard where I don't want to tolerate idiots who I wouldn't let my family fly with.

My question to the group here is: How do I address the issue with the company if he falls asleep on me?

The other guys I know that said they've seen him pass out have not called pro-standards. I don't want to be the narc and I don't want to be known as a guy that messed up another guy's career, BUT we have to draw a line somewhere. Don't we?

Am I just being a whiny bitch?
 
Kingairer said:
When an • captain falls asleep, enjoy the silence.
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I can't reconcile that tactic with the professional that I think I want to be. I need a more thought-provoking reply to my dilemma.

Would you put your family on this guy's flight even if you trusted the FO to be competent?
 
If you're not the only one having an issue with his particular Captain, I wouldn't sweat being a "narc" or anything of that nature. It's only a matter of time until this guy nods off an someone gets violated or worse because he wasn't there to back them up when they made an honest mistake.

Usually I'll try and get out in front of a potential issue by addressing it directly and politely. If you see him falling asleep wake him up and ask if he slept ok, if maybe he should call fatigued, etc. Or just explain that you know you aren't the only one who has witnessed this and tell him it concerns you. I realize this is easier said than done and I've been here myself but we have far too much time and effort invested in this to risk throwing it away because someone can't conduct themselves appropriately.

If that doesn't work I'd ask the opinions of a few trusted pilots I knew who know the company and the culture well, weigh the answers and proceed from there. Calling pro stands isn't being a narc when someone puts you in a crappy position to begin with. That's what they're there for. A professional shouldn't put you in that spot in the first place.
 
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Cal Goat said:
I can't reconcile that tactic with the professional that I think I want to be. I need a more thought-provoking reply to my dilemma.

Would you put your family on this guy's flight even if you trusted the FO to be competent?
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What is your expected outcome?
 
Um.... Pro standards is there for a reason. Going to the CP right away versus giving him a chance and chatting with him first, then following up with Pro Standards if need be is being that guy IMO.

After re reading your 1st post it's clear you don't know how Pro Standards works. Going to them will not mess up ones career. It very well could help it.

Also are you trained to determine if someone is or isnt fit for the job? I'm talking AME level here.
 
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Kingairer said:
What is your expected outcome?
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At the very least, I want to removed from a crew environment with a pilot who I already know sucks ar CRM and may very well be physically unfit to fly.

To me, the "enjoy the silence" response is a direct contradiction to a professional operation and culture, as idealistic as that fantasy may be. I've kept my mouth shut enough times in my career. I've tried to avoid this guy already.

I just don't see any consistency in the lip service that we give to professionalism, especially in the 121 world, and then all the times we turn our heads when something's not quite right.

Don't I owe it to myself and all of the passengers this guy may someday fly to make a record of his red flags for the company?
 
ClarkGriswold said:
Um.... Pro standards is there for a reason. Going to the right away CP versus giving him a chance and chatting with him first, then following up with Pro Standards if need be is being that guy IMO.
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Remember, prior to this I bid avoided him and tried to drop the trip from my schedule.

I went to the CP initially to say, "Hey I bid avoided this guy and now I can't get out of this trip short of calling in sick. I already know his CRM is garbage, and I want to prevent a situation where the cockpit environment is going to be toxic."
 
You are making your decision too difficult. Your job as a professional pilot is to manage risk to the best of your ability - regardless of your seat position. This "senior captain" behavior stuff is no excuse for misbehaving; rather, he should be setting the example for the younger guys. If it were me this is what I would do: Start out will a civil conversation and state clearly that you intend to adhere to SOPs - period. If it turns out that one of the crew members needs a few minutes of "study time" enroute and it's clearly coordinated between the two of you, that's another matter. If the captain disregards your concerns and falls asleep without some kind of agreed to and coordinated "break period", I would take my trusty iPhone 5 out, snap a picture of him sleeping and then call the chief pilot at your next opportunity and explain to him that you will not continue to facilitate this gross misconduct that apparently he already knows about. Remove yourself from the trip and stand your ground - you aren't wrong here. You aren't doing yourself or our profession any favors coddling this type of unprofessional behavior. This situation is beyond Professional Standards assistance if you ask me. The toughest decision is generally the right one - now you just have to make it.

I'm a 25 year senior captain and I would would be pissed if my FOs simply tolerated my bad behavior without straightening my ass up. Weak FOs become weak captains. Do the right thing.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
Um.... Pro standards is there for a reason. Going to the CP right away versus giving him a chance and chatting with him first, then following up with Pro Standards if need be is being that guy IMO.
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Cal Goat said:
I went to the CP initially to say, "Hey I bid avoided this guy and now I can't get out of this trip short of calling in sick. I already know his CRM is garbage, and I want to prevent a situation where the cockpit environment is going to be toxic."
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I agree, you handled things backwards. Plus going along this path based on things you've only heard about is pretty poor form; like 7th grade crying to the principle because Jennifer said that Kayla said that your shoes are ugly.


I once had a captain take a nap while the FO was deviating around storms. Apparently he fell asleep too, as did I. Woke up to ATC asking if we were done deviating. GPS showed us close to 100 miles off course. "yes we are ready to proceed to XYZ..."

Nobody was that guy.
 
I was cool to people at my last job. Including the guy that spent three days railing on our Jewish passengers saying hateful things about my religion in general. I thought that since it was my first rotation I should chill and try and show this guy that I was willing to work hard, that I was a great pilot and good person. So I got taken advantage of. Majorly taken advantage of.

Now I wish I had just called HR said I wouldn't fly with my immediate manager because he was an anti semite and called my lawyer. Done deal. Game over. Too bad for you d-bag.

If the guy has problems. Roast him over a pit. Aviation has taught me to be ruthless. I will continue to be so. It isn't like anyone is doing me any favors. Why the F- should I do you one? Who cares about being a "narc" the next guy you meet would "narc" on you in an instant.
 
Adler said:
I agree, you handled things backwards. Plus going along this path based on things you've only heard about is pretty poor form; like 7th grade crying to the principle because Jennifer said that Kayla said that your shoes are ugly.


I once had a captain take a nap while the FO was deviating around storms. Apparently he fell asleep too, as did I. Woke up to ATC asking if we were done deviating. GPS showed us close to 100 miles off course. "yes we are ready to proceed to XYZ..."

Nobody was that guy.
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Clarification from my first post: I did NOT mention anything to the CP other than that I had flown with him previously and felt that his CRM and communication were bad and that I had tried to bid avoid him and tried to drop the trip. My conversation with the CP was primarily regarding PBS and scheduling, NOT that I thought he was a bad pilot or dangerous.
 
I'm trying to figure out how someone makes it through recurrent (as a captain no less) if they don't follow CRM and SOP's. This is on the training department.

Why aren't crew members going to pro standards about it?

As far as the sleeping goes, he may have sleep apnea and not know it. I'd have an honest heart to heart with him about it. If he can't come up with a reasonable answer why he's always napping (personal stuff at home, stress, and etc...) I'd recommend he go see a doctor. If he gave me any pushback, I'd report him to pro standards. Pro standards only works if everyone is proactive with it.
 
KLB said:
I'm trying to figure out how someone makes it through recurrent (as a captain no less) if they don't follow CRM and SOP's. This is on the training department.

Why aren't crew members going to pro standards about it?

As far as the sleeping goes, he may have sleep apnea and not know it. I'd have an honest heart to heart with him about it. If he can't come up with a reasonable answer why he's always napping (personal stuff at home, stress, and etc...) I'd recommend he go see a doctor. If he gave me any pushback, I'd report him to pro standards. Pro standards only works if everyone is proactive with it.
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Some guys are really really good at "playing the game" on check ride day. Sure, we can tell they aren't as proficient as they should be at being standard, so we can assume they are non-standard on line. But what would you have the check airmen do? Fail them for suspicions even though they met the standard for the check ride?

Pro-standards and the average line guy can have a much more direct effect on those guys than the training department can, if for no other reason than the amount of exposure. Anyone can pretend for a few days of training per year.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Some guys are really really good at "playing the game" on check ride day. Sure, we can tell they aren't as proficient as they should be at being standard, so we can assume they are non-standard on line. But what would you have the check airmen do? Fail them for suspicions even though they met the standard for the check ride?

Pro-standards and the average line guy can have a much more direct effect on those guys than the training department can, if for no other reason than the amount of exposure. Anyone can pretend for a few days of training per year.
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That's understandable.

I don't know why some folks through CRM or SOPs out the window post training/checking event only to have to relearn/cram study for the next checking event.
 
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