I almost died yesterday

Rocketman99

Rocketman99

Frozen Guppy Manipulator
This happened in the Saab.

Morning flight to HPN. Beautiful day. Clear and a million, you could see all of NYC clearly from our route into HPN which is 20-30 miles or so away.

Anyway, so we're about 20 miles from the airport and have been descended to 3,000 ft on our initial vector south for the visual to runway 34. It's been a busy day on TCAS, lots of bogeys around all flight and two "traffic" calls in the past 5 mins from local VFR traffic in the area. The Captain and I are both swiveling heads around from the traffic. I'm looking out and spot some guy we just gut a TCAS alert from and a call out from approach. He's coming from our right and due to pass over about around 600' above us. I reply to the radio call (Capt's leg) that I do.

The Captain asks if I have that guy and I say yeah and he says keep a good eye on him cause there's somebody on TCAS who may be an issue coming up that he's looking for. I'm watching the guy from our right, he descends a couple hundred feet so he's 500' above us and it looks like he is going to cross directly overhead. I briefly turn and look at what the Capt is seeing on TCAS. It's a guy about 5 miles ahead of and closing showing 200' above our altitude and we have yet to spot him.

Just then we get an RA from the guy to our right "Descend, descend" as he is getting close to passing overhead. Now the other guy is about 3 miles from us and we now have "Descend, crossing descend" (For those not familiar with TCAS, you get that when you are crossing between traffic). The guy in front of us descended so that he is now at our altitude or slightly below us and the guy to our fright has now passed overhead. The captain had clicked off the autopilot already and was descending a little from the guy that had passed overheaed. I mae the radio call to ATC that we are descending in compliance with a TCAS RA.

Immediately we get "increase descent" as the guy in front is co-altitude at 2 miles and closing still. We are now descending at 3500FPM per the end of the red arc on our VSIs (mind you, we were only at 3000' to begin with!). We pick up the traffic a few seconds before he passes us directly head on overhead at only about 200' at most. It appeared to be a light twin. He obviously never saw us as he never made any turns or altitude changes and we never got any call from ATC about him at all. As he passed, we stopped the descent, and leveled off at about 2000'. I asked atc if he wanted us to climb back up, but he told us to just stay at two as he was abut to descend us anyway.

We queried ATC and he wasn't controlling the twin or painting him. He was legally VFR in the area. If he had descended any further it would have been a mid-air of a nearly pax-full Saab plus 3 crew and a light twin. As it was we missed by only about 200 (by my Mark I eyeball guesstimates) feet head on! If we were at 2000' when we started instead of 3000', there would have been nowhere down to go except the ground (3000 on the altimeter is between 2000 and 2500 AGL in the area). This, my friends, is a situation I would not like to ever be in again and I hope that none of you ever are either!
 
Let me start off by saying I'm glad you're ok.

That having been said, you have provided waaaay too many *specific* details that if a fed came across this, he could easily track you down.


Always be careful what you post, you never know who is looking!

At the very least, I would take out any specific reference of dates, city pairs, your schedule (dont even mention what leg of the day it is), keep it as annonymous as you can.

It's for your own good.


Do you really need a story?

Fine.

Here's one. This story I got from a Mesa pilot who knew the crew involved.

Flightlevel350.com is an aviation movie website, and you can load your own clips there.

There was a Mesa pilot who video taped the landing at IAD. The Captain was flying, this FO was taping. The FO was also talking on the radio (PNF duties). All he had done was put in the video the location (IAD) and date the video was taken. The FO made radio callouts like he was suppose to, including the call sign and flight number.

That's all it took. A fed came across it, and from the callsign (Air Shuttle xxxx), he knew the airline, the flight number, and the date was already published. The F/O was tracked down, and then the video was promptly removed.

I don't know what became of the FO, but it was a violation of sterile cockpit rules. I believe the crew was still ok, they never got written up, but that's just the latest word I got from this Mesa pilot who told me the story.

And for the record, I've seen this video in question... and it's no longer on flightlevel350.com


ANYWAY, my point, REMOVE specific details ASAP! Last thing you want is a fed lurking here, and before you know it, he'll have you tracked down due to the really specific details you've provided.

Cheers!
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Let me start off by saying I'm glad you're ok.

That having been said, you have provided waaaay too many *specific* details that if a fed came across this, he could easily track you down.


Always be careful what you post, you never know who is looking!

At the very least, I would take out any specific reference of dates, city pairs, your schedule (dont even mention what leg of the day it is), keep it as annonymous as you can.

It's for your own good.


Do you really need a story?

Fine.

Here's one. This story I got from a Mesa pilot who knew the crew involved.

Flightlevel350.com is an aviation movie website, and you can load your own clips there.

There was a Mesa pilot who video taped the landing at IAD. The Captain was flying, this FO was taping. The FO was also talking on the radio (PNF duties). All he had done was put in the video the location (IAD) and date the video was taken. The FO made radio callouts like he was suppose to, including the call sign and flight number.

That's all it took. A fed came across it, and from the callsign (Air Shuttle xxxx), he knew the airline, the flight number, and the date was already published. The F/O was tracked down, and then the video was promptly removed.

I don't know what became of the FO, but it was a violation of sterile cockpit rules. I believe the crew was still ok, they never got written up, but that's just the latest word I got from this Mesa pilot who told me the story.

And for the record, I've seen this video in question... and it's no longer on flightlevel350.com


ANYWAY, my point, REMOVE specific details ASAP! Last thing you want is a fed lurking here, and before you know it, he'll have you tracked down due to the really specific details you've provided.

Cheers!
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uhhh...it sounds like the feds wouldn't even get involved with this.....it's a perfect case of a crew using their emergency authority to avoid a crash.....

It's also a very good reminder to airline pilots that we're still responsible for keeping our eyes outside of the cockpit and always staying alert when we're working...people's lives depend on it...

perhaps people should quit being paranoid and learn from others experience.....
 
Wow Ed! Nice work. I'll give you a call over the weekend sometime and you can give me the gory details.

As for me, STILL not flying. My waiver went in about a week and a half ago, and 19AF is draggin!! I'm going stir crazy out here, but my total posts to JC numbers have like doubled in the last 2 weeks.
 
launchpad said:
uhhh...it sounds like the feds wouldn't even get involved with this.....it's a perfect case of a crew using their emergency authority to avoid a crash.....

It's also a very good reminder to airline pilots that we're still responsible for keeping our eyes outside of the cockpit and always staying alert when we're working...people's lives depend on it...

perhaps people should quit being paranoid and learn from others experience.....
Click to expand...


Are you even reading what I wrote?!

PLENTY of pilots have gotten in trouble with something they posted online (be it an article about an incident/close call/accident, or posted a video).

In all cases, the pilots had put waay too much specific information that allowed for them getting tracked down.

This isn't being paranoid. Any fed reading an article about how an airline pilot almost died is going to have his red-flag-radar up and activated.


YES, we can learn from this whole incident that happened.

ALL I SAID was to remove *extremely specific* information.

1. Remove date (mentioned as yesterday, and looking at the post date, you can track exactly what date it is). That information is irrelevant to learning from this incident. Doesn't matter if it happened yesterday, a week ago, or a month ago.

2. Remove city pairs and leg information. For this near midair, no one needs to know you were going from IAD to HPN or if it was from LGA to BUF.

3. Remove any schedule information, eg, leg 2 of 6. That kind of information has no bearing on us wanting to learn from this near mid air incident.


Removing the above information will keep your midair story still intact, we will all learn from it, AND the added benefit that you are still anonymous and can't be tracked down by anyone.

If you think feds haven't tracked down pilots through the invention that is the internet, then someone needs a wakeup call.
 
Be glad that all envolved had a working txponder, you had the TCAS and it was severe clear.

Had a scary situation once...EWR-ORF...Descending through ten, both mine and the Captain's heads were down, it was late afternoon and pretty hazy. Just looked grey in front of us. All of a sudden I noticed something in the windscreen (we're still descending), it was a light twin cruising along going the same direction we were....Bottom line nothing happened..

What I learned...The TCAS/ATC won't see everything (like the guy putzing around without a TXPNR on). There are times like this when we get complacent with our scans because it's not like the Flight Levels where everyone has a txpnder on OR like getting vectors for an approach where you're on a hair trigger for some TA/RA.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Are you even reading what I wrote?!

PLENTY of pilots have gotten in trouble with something they posted online (be it an article about an incident/close call/accident, or posted a video).

In all cases, the pilots had put waay too much specific information that allowed for them getting tracked down.

This isn't being paranoid. Any fed reading an article about how an airline pilot almost died is going to have his red-flag-radar up and activated.


YES, we can learn from this whole incident that happened.

ALL I SAID was to remove *extremely specific* information.

1. Remove date (mentioned as yesterday, and looking at the post date, you can track exactly what date it is). That information is irrelevant to learning from this incident. Doesn't matter if it happened yesterday, a week ago, or a month ago.

2. Remove city pairs and leg information. For this near midair, no one needs to know you were going from IAD to HPN or if it was from LGA to BUF.

3. Remove any schedule information, eg, leg 2 of 6. That kind of information has no bearing on us wanting to learn from this near mid air incident.


Removing the above information will keep your midair story still intact, we will all learn from it, AND the added benefit that you are still anonymous and can't be tracked down by anyone.

If you think feds haven't tracked down pilots through the invention that is the internet, then someone needs a wakeup call.
Click to expand...

Even with the information, the Feds have absolutely nothing to charge the pilots with.......no regulations were broken and the flight was operated in a manner completely opposite from careless and reckless.........

The FAA, as dumb as they seem sometimes, realizes that these things happen. That's why there are so many references to see and avoid in FAA publications. It's put into every pilot's head from the beginning for exactly this kind of situation.

You seem to be adamant about hiding any information about yourself.....please do explain what you would be afraid of if this was your story........

My opinion would be completely different if regulations were violated or if there was sheer disregard for operational safety being conveyed in the story.....
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Are you even reading what I wrote?!

PLENTY of pilots have gotten in trouble with something they posted online (be it an article about an incident/close call/accident, or posted a video).

In all cases, the pilots had put waay too much specific information that allowed for them getting tracked down.

This isn't being paranoid. Any fed reading an article about how an airline pilot almost died is going to have his red-flag-radar up and activated.


YES, we can learn from this whole incident that happened.

ALL I SAID was to remove *extremely specific* information.

1. Remove date (mentioned as yesterday, and looking at the post date, you can track exactly what date it is). That information is irrelevant to learning from this incident. Doesn't matter if it happened yesterday, a week ago, or a month ago.

2. Remove city pairs and leg information. For this near midair, no one needs to know you were going from IAD to HPN or if it was from LGA to BUF.

3. Remove any schedule information, eg, leg 2 of 6. That kind of information has no bearing on us wanting to learn from this near mid air incident.


Removing the above information will keep your midair story still intact, we will all learn from it, AND the added benefit that you are still anonymous and can't be tracked down by anyone.

If you think feds haven't tracked down pilots through the invention that is the internet, then someone needs a wakeup call.
Click to expand...

Why should he fear the feds when he did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG?! If anything, the feds would go after the two VFR guys that weren't keeping an eye out for other traffic or maybe even WAFDOF (Wrong Altitude For Direction Of Flight).
 
Being careful is not the same as being paranoid.

Thanks for sharing the story, that's how we learn, experience. Glad you're here to tell us about it.
 
C_C, What FAR did he break? What part of the AIM did he disregard?

Case closed. There is a BIG difference between being STUPID (like the Mesa pilots) and what Rocketman did (save lives).

Case closed, Mr. paranoid.

Seriously, great story, man, and I hope we can all learn from it.
 
This is kinda funny how I'm being told I'm "Mr. Paranoid" by OldTownPilot, launchpad, and TFaudree_ERAU.

Case closed.
Click to expand...

"Case closed." LOL!!!!! Thanks for the laugh!




Then you're saying the crew did nothing wrong. How do you know? You've got one side of the story, what about the other side, the other two aircraft?

I'm not saying the crewmemeber who posted this is at fault.


The crewmember did post that the other aircraft passed barely 200 feet above him at most. By definition, this can be defined as a NMAC event (less than 500 feet).


Since you three seem ignorant of what the feds can do, the best I can do is refer you to Chapter 169 of the Examiner Inspecter Manual, titled, "Investigate a Near Mid-Air Collision."

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/media/2_169_00.pdf

Go through that document. Even if this crew did "nothing wrong," you can clearly see the feds have quite some work to do.

Maybe there was an initial notification of a NMAC sent to the FAA by the controlling authority.

You three don't know if that's the case.

Like I said, when it comes to posting information about something that went wrong in flying (especially at the airline level), ALWAYS keep it as confidential as you can if you post.

That includes: remove dates, flight numbers, leg numbers, city pairs, any mention of schedules, and any names.


This is NOT being paranoid. It's merely just watching your own back and taking care of yourself.

You can tell tell the whole story, get your point across, and keep it anonymous.
 
Everyone be careful out there. Whether your operating revenue or just the weekend warrior taking the C-172 out for a spin. ##### happens with this field, just like with any job. No one is out there to, "Get Ya!"

P.S.- Baronman, great signature. That was one of the greatest SNL sketches ever.
 
Actually, given the area, the aircraft involved were all acting within their bounds. The other two aircraft were both legally operating VFR in airspace that is typically congested.

IMO, about the only thing the head-on could have done would be to pull up. Assuming he did see if, if the twin pilot turned, given it was a low wing aircraft, he would likely have lost sight of us which could have made things worse if we both turned in the same direction. However, if he climbed I don't know if it would then maybe have put him into risk with the plane that had crossed over us just before.

The plane crossing right to left over us was not really at all involved as everything happened shortly after he passed over us.

For a case of CYA though, I will take out some specifics. (Done) Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you! :) Actually, we filled out an irregularity report and faxed it in after we landed and I'm in the midst of filling out one of our ASAP thingies (an airline program's equivalent of a NASA form).

Thanks for everyone's concern. Much appreciated. :)

Just a lesson to all of us, keep the scans up no matter where you're flying. I just got a chill thinking about what could have happened if the TCAS on the plane happened to be inop that day...
 
Two things.
1) Above all the bickering...everyone stay safe. I fear good weather vs. bad because the weekend guys are going to be out. Most midair's occur in Severe Clear.
2) Please don't start stories with "I almost died"
 
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