Hypothetical Questions for Pilots

R

RobertB

Well-Known Member
Situation: Class Charlie airspace, reported ceiling of 1,600 feet on ATIS, night, fast jet (GLF, ASTR, or LJ wanting to go into the pattern with all the top equipment available to them to use), last inbound broke out of clouds around 1,300 feet

Aircraft is told of last inbound C130 breaking out of clouds at 1,300 feet while holding short of runway for landing traffic (C130) ready for departure and advised by ATC to say intentions...

Would you as a pilot depart to remain in the VFR traffic pattern? (Pattern altitude is 1,500 feet)

Assuming you decided to depart and enter the traffic pattern, would you inform ATC if you flew into clouds knowing you just made a mistake by getting into clouds or would you keep it to yourself and try to manage your way out of them by using your instruments?
 
RobertB said:
Situation: Class Charlie airspace, reported ceiling of 1,600 feet on ATIS, night, fast jet (GLF, ASTR, or LJ wanting to go into the pattern with all the top equipment available to them to use), last inbound broke out of clouds around 1,300 feet

Aircraft is told of last inbound C130 breaking out of clouds at 1,300 feet while holding short of runway for landing traffic (C130) ready for departure and advised by ATC to say intentions...

Would you as a pilot depart to remain in the VFR traffic pattern? (Pattern altitude is 1,500 feet)

Assuming you decided to depart and enter the traffic pattern, would you inform ATC if you flew into clouds knowing you just made a mistake by getting into clouds or would you keep it to yourself and try to manage your way out of them by using your instruments?
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Fixed wing, or rotary wing?
 
I wouldn't depart. Despite the aircraft being more than capable of handling the low ceilings, VFR weather minimums in Charlie state that you must be 1000 feet above, 500 feet below, and 2000 feet lateral distance to any cloud. With a reported ceiling at 1300 feet and a TPA of 1500 feet, that would be impossible. However, if the ceiling went back up to 1600 feet, I could get get a SVFR if I was instrument rated.

If I did decide to depart, I would rely on my instruments only if I had an instrument rating. Pilots relying solely on their instruments without any sort of instrument training tend to make really bad mistakes. I'd communicate with ATC and tell them the problem and see how they could help me out.
 
Jshutt64 said:
....... However, if the ceiling went back up to 1600 feet, I could get get a SVFR if I was instrument rated.
.
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Sounds like the field is about to go IFR. I wouldn't depart VFR either. BTW, SVFR at night it also requires you to be instrument current besides holding a rating.
 
Yes, if the "pattern" were to stay local shooting approaches.

No, if the "pattern" were to be an attempt to fly a standard VFR pattern.
 
You didn't exactly make your scenario clear, so I'm going to make some assumptions, based on what would most likely be the case for me.

I'm going to assume that I will be flying in a VFR pattern at the airport to gain currency, so, 3 takeoffs and landings (I'm also assuming non-mountainous terrain, or terrain I'm familiar with). I'm assuming that the clouds are from an stratoform overcast layer, not CBs (ie. slow changing weather, no major adverse conditions other than the low ceilings). I think you also said it was at night. Knowing that, I'll also assume that the pilot is instrument rated and current and the aircraft is instrument equipped.

Given that, yeah, I'd go. If you are a stickler about maintaining cloud clearances, 800 ft for a pattern isn't exactly uncommon (assuming you're not flying a jet, in which case, well, it might benefit you to shoot some approaches anyways :) ). If you want to be extra careful, get a SVFR from tower. If you go in the clouds you should be able to get out (if you get into them after passing, say, 1100 feet, it's pretty obvious that you'll get out of them again by descending back below 1100.) With a guess of where the clouds are, you shouldn't be climbing so fast at that point where you'll be inadvertent IMC for more than a few seconds. Give tower a new PIREP, and if you're worried about legal action after that, file a NASA report when you get back on the ground. Really, most towers just want that information so they can pass it on to the next guy, not to be a tattletale.

If you go in and can't get back out, then you inform ATC and get a pop-up IFR. The chances of getting into that situation are low, but it's certainly still there, and that's part of the risk you are assuming by taking off.

If you go up and it's a lot worse than you thought it'd be, make it a full stop and try again another night.
 
First off, I'm not advocating this, or anything, so don't state all the reasons why I'm wrong, but traffic pattern altitudes are not regulatory, so you do not have to fly it at 1500 AGL, you can fly it at 800 AGL and be legal for cloud requirements.


Jshutt64 said:
I wouldn't depart. Despite the aircraft being more than capable of handling the low ceilings, VFR weather minimums in Charlie state that you must be 1000 feet above, 500 feet below, and 2000 feet lateral distance to any cloud. With a reported ceiling at 1300 feet and a TPA of 1500 feet, that would be impossible. However, if the ceiling went back up to 1600 feet, I could get get a SVFR if I was instrument rated.

If I did decide to depart, I would rely on my instruments only if I had an instrument rating. Pilots relying solely on their instruments without any sort of instrument training tend to make really bad mistakes. I'd communicate with ATC and tell them the problem and see how they could help me out.
Click to expand...


How can you get SVFR if the field is already VFR? The field is VFR, so you cannot get a Special VFR, the one notable exception is if a field is VFR, but where you want to enter the airspace may be IFR, then you need a SVFR to enter the airspace. This is not the case though, since we are talking about doing pattern work, so your weather will be the same as the airports weather, or at least it should be, unless they are in the process of issuing a special, or anything like that. Plus, since most (not all, but most) controlled fields do have automated weather now, so the controller no longer (or whoever the weather observer is) needs to estimate how high the clouds are, and when a ceiling falls below, or equals/exceeds 1500 feet, a SPECI would be issued.

AIM, section 4-3-3, it states "Traffic pattern altitudes should be maintained unless otherwise required by the applicable distance from cloud criteria." FAR 1.1 states "Special VFR conditions means meteorological conditions that are less than those required for basic VFR flight in controlled airspace and in which some aircraft are permitted flight under visual flight rules." That states right there, you can't have SVFR, if you have VFR to begin with.

Like I said before though, controllers can issue SVFR to a pilot if it is needed to enter or leave an airspace, where the weather at the specific location may be below the basic VFR minimums, while the field is VFR
 
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