how would you log this?

Okay so here's how I'm picturing it.

Take your sectional and draw a big blue circle around whatever airport is going to be your original point of departure with a 50 NM radius(100NM diameter). It would look somewhat similar to the class Bravo ring, just much larger.

Now that you have a big circle around your airport, if any of the points of landing are outside the line (and like baseball on the line is fair game) then it is cross country and all of it can be logged as such, for any cert/rating.

Now if your airports fall within that ring, but you have a straight line distance of more than 50NM within that ring between two airports, that can still be logged as x/c just not for a cert or rating. Clear as mud?

(okay now I'm going to await the beat down) :D
 
SteveC said:
I have a problem with your synopsis.

You state that a pilot has the ability to do a reposition flight for the purpose of a certificate or rating - I disagree.

"Adherence to these strict definitions of cross-country and the “original point of departure” is only necessary when the purpose is for crediting cross-country aeronautical experience for the furtherance of a pilot certificate and rating."
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I am sorry this must have come out wrong then. I am meaning to say that this is what we are stuck on. As of now it seems you and I both view this differently, I think it is possible you don't. So the question at this point in time I think is can the aircraft be reposition? Am I right SteveC?

Edit: If it cannot be repositioned then I agree it cannot be logged. Does anyone have a definitive answer and a source?
 
BajtheJino said:
No , Sherlock. My point was there has to be a reason for said person to demand your logbook. Before I turn mine over there has to be a reason not because most people live in fear of the FAA or are just plain stupid.
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You are right Baj!

They can not just ask you for your logbook. That's a fear myth that student pilots hand down to each other for some reason.

If someone from the FSDO calls you and ask to see your logbook your correct response should be NO! Actually the more professional response would be.... "If you need to see any of my logbook I will need a written letter from you signed by your supervisor so I can show my attorney. Then I will show you my currency entries, which is all that is required of me to log"

As far as another poster saying its a "ramp check", the inspector doing your check will never ask to see your logbook. I cant even remember the last time my logbook was ever in an airplane.
 
ryanmickG said:
You are right Baj!

They can not just ask you for your logbook. That's a fear myth that student pilots hand down to each other for some reason.

If someone from the FSDO calls you and ask to see your logbook your correct response should be NO! Actually the more professional response would be.... "If you need to see any of my logbook I will need a written letter from you signed by your supervisor so I can show my attorney. Then I will show you my currency entries, which is all that is required of me to log"

As far as another poster saying its a "ramp check", the inspector doing your check will never ask to see your logbook. I cant even remember the last time my logbook was ever in an airplane.
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Well said.
Too bad this fear myth is perpetuated by "experienced professionals".
 
ryanmickG said:
As far as another poster saying its a "ramp check", the inspector doing your check will never ask to see your logbook. I cant even remember the last time my logbook was ever in an airplane.
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From FAAO 8900.1:
Section 4 Conduct a Part 91 Ramp Inspection

D. Inspect Airman Documents.
1) Inspect airman certificates to determine appropriate ratings and limitations for the type of operations being conducted.
2) Determine if certificates are genuine and legible. (See Volume 5, Chapter 2, Part 61 Certification of Pilots and Flight Instructors, Section 1, General)
3) Inspect airman medical certificates to determine if they are current and the appropriate class. Check for a Statement of Demonstrated Ability, if required, on the medical certificate.
4) If available, examine pilot logbooks (or other reliable records) to determine recency of experience and qualifications, such as:
• Biennial flight review
• Instrument proficiency check
• PIC proficiency check
5) If applicable, inspect pilot Category II and/or Category III authorization letters for currency. (§ 91.189)
6) Note any discrepancies on the job aid.
 
BajtheJino said:
No , Sherlock. My point was there has to be a reason for said person to demand your logbook. Before I turn mine over there has to be a reason not because most people live in fear of the FAA or are just plain stupid.
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I'll tell you what. Why don't you and Doctor Watson get together and thumb through the FARs, the NTSB Orders and Opinions, or anything else, and come up with something that says there has to be a reason for the FAA to request your logbook or anything that says you do not have to comply with such a request (assuming you want to continue flying on your U.S. pilot certificate).
 
ryanmickG said:
You are right Baj!

They can not just ask you for your logbook. That's a fear myth that student pilots hand down to each other for some reason.

If someone from the FSDO calls you and ask to see your logbook your correct response should be NO! Actually the more professional response would be.... "If you need to see any of my logbook I will need a written letter from you signed by your supervisor so I can show my attorney. Then I will show you my currency entries, which is all that is required of me to log"

As far as another poster saying its a "ramp check", the inspector doing your check will never ask to see your logbook. I cant even remember the last time my logbook was ever in an airplane.
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Why don't you get together with Doctor Watson and BajtheJino and help them look for something that says you have the right to demand that it be signed by a supervisor. Incidentally, they will be more than happy to give it to you in writing.
 
tgrayson said:
4) If available, examine pilot logbooks
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Exactly! "If available".

You should never carry your pilot logbook in the aircraft with you unless you are a student pilot, and there is no reg that says I have to.

If they really need it, I will be happy to send them a copy of my currency with a written letter signed by their operations inspector supervisor. Unless there is a some legal reason that they need to see my flight activity then they have no right to ask to see the flights I log. My logbook is MY property and a way of recording MY flight time.


I have a lot of respect for some FSDO inspectors that I know very well, who by the way are the one telling me to never give anything to the FAA without a written letter. The fact is that there are some bad apples at the FAA that have no business working for the FAA. I dont trust them at all!
 
ryanmickG said:
Exactly! "If available".

You should never carry your pilot logbook in the aircraft with you unless you are a student pilot, and there is no reg that says I have to.

If they really need it, I will be happy to send them a copy of my currency with a written letter signed by their operations inspector supervisor. Unless there is a some legal reason that they need to see my flight activity then they have no right to ask to see the flights I log. My logbook is MY property and a way of recording MY flight time.


I have a lot of respect for some FSDO inspectors that I know very well, who by the way are the one telling me to never give anything to the FAA without a written letter. The fact is that there are some bad apples at the FAA that have no business working for the FAA. I dont trust them at all!
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Again, well said.
There is nothing wrong with having things done this way. Its the "well, thats the FAA I better do what they say because they're always right" mentality that boggles my mind.

Very cute.
Click to expand...
Wasn't a dig at you. Take it how you will though.
 
tgrayson said:
You stated "the inspector doing your check will never ask to see your logbook", which is not accordance to their published guidance.
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You're right.

I meant that he or she will not likely ask for it. If they do then all they need to see is currency and even that is not required to on your persons.

I've been ramp checked half a dozen times and my logbook was never brought up.
 
BajtheJino said:
Again, well said.
There is nothing wrong with having things done this way. Its the "well, thats the FAA I better do what they say because they're always right" mentality that boggles my mind.


.
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I boggles mine as well.

Its like the myth that if a FAA inspector ever ask to see your certs then you just show it to him and don't let him hold it, because then you are "surrendering your license to him". Dumb! Obviously they cant revoke your license without due process.

I'm not saying you should be an • everytime the FAA calls and wants something from you, but at the same time don't let them bully you into thinking you have to do whatever they say.

I suggest to all pilots from private to CFI to call their local FSDO with any questions they might have. They are very helpful and can be a very good friend to have on your side if you ever need them. Most of them are very good at their jobs and have tons of experience.

A few years ago I got a call from a FSDO outside of my area and the inspector told me that one of the pilots I gave a BFR to had a gear up landing, he said he needed a copy of ALL the people I have signed off in the the past two years! This guy had a mojor case of the power trips. I called a local DPE that I've known for years, who was also a FAA ops inspector for 25 years and he told me not to call this guy back, and dont give him anything unless you get a letter in the mail from them. I never got the letter, and I never heard from the guy again.
 
ryanmickG said:
Its like the myth that if a FAA inspector ever ask to see your certs then you just show it to him and don't let him hold it, because then you are "surrendering your license to him". Dumb! Obviously they cant revoke your license without due process.
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Very true.

I handed mine to an FAA inspector this morning. Had them back in my hand less than 2 minutes later. All the inspector said was "Thank you."
 
PeterPilot said:
I'll tell you what. Why don't you and Doctor Watson get together and thumb through the FARs, the NTSB Orders and Opinions, or anything else, and come up with something that says there has to be a reason for the FAA to request your logbook or anything that says you do not have to comply with such a request (assuming you want to continue flying on your U.S. pilot certificate).
Click to expand...

I think the point is that you should not willing give any information or documents to the FAA that are not required for your flight. Not to hide anything, but to protect yourself. Obviously, you would have to show them the documents that make the flight legal (certificates, etc..), since those are required to be in your possession or in the airplane. A logbook is not required (except for student pilots on XC flights) to be on board the aircraft. Any request for any additional documents/information should be given in writing.

Again, don't be rude or confrontational, but don't give them any extra information that you are not required to give them.
 
ryanmickG said:
They are going to revoke my license for not showing them something that is not required of me to have??


next
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No, they are not going to revoke your license for not showing them something that is not required for you to have. However they will suspend your certificate pending compliance for failing to present your logbook. Obviously there is no requirement for a private pilot to carry logbook, but 14 CFR 61.51 does require him or her to present it upon reasonable request. Ten days is common and reasonable.

Now, let’s go back to the question you didn’t answer. Where is there anything written that says you have a right to demand who signs a letter to you from the FAA?
 
PeterPilot said:
No, they are not going to revoke your license for not showing them something that is not required for you to have. However they will suspend your certificate pending compliance for failing to present your logbook. Obviously there is no requirement for a private pilot to carry logbook, but 14 CFR 61.51 does require him or her to present it upon reasonable request. Ten days is common and reasonable.
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is there anything keeping me from presenting a post-it with my currency logged on it to the feds as my logbook...while the rest of my flights are kept in a "real" logbook?
 
poser765 said:
is there anything keeping me from presenting a post-it with my currency logged on it to the feds as my logbook...while the rest of my flights are kept in a "real" logbook?
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No, there is nothing preventing you from doing that. However, (and there is always a however):

(1) You do need to ensure your records contain all the elements listed in 14 CFR 61.51(b). If you omit any of those elements, then the flight does not meet the requirements to satisfy any regulation.

(2) You need to somehow show compliance with 14 CFR 61.56. If you met that requirement by doing a flight review, it would have to include the instructor's signature.

(3) Any other requirements (such as 14 CFR 61.58, 14 CFR 61.31(i) or SFAR 73) if applicable would need to be included.

(4) You might get resistance over the issue if that is a "reliable record". Since words like "reliable" are subjective, the reaction from one person could be different than that of another.

(5) In all likelihood, records recorded in such a manner would raise a flag of suspicion that would invite investigation.
 
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