How much $$ is enough?

[Polar742]

That's not a fair analogy. RC is a much better product than Subway and can charge more per meal and get that revenue. A pilot flying a 767-200 is not producing a better product than a pilot flying a 737-300.

He's producing 2X the product (+/-) 120 seats for the 737, 240 for a 767

 

[400A]

I definitely see your argument, and as someone that has no desire to fly bigger, longer-haul equipment, it would certainly personally benefit me to have a pure longevity scale rather than an equipment scale, but I can't get past the revenue angle.

The guy flying the 1900 certainly has the same job and the same responsibility, but his company can't possibly afford to pay him $250/hr, because they just don't bring in the revenue with a fleet of 1900s in order to pay him that amount. The mainline carrier with the fleet of Boeings, on the other hand, is a very different situation. The 767 Captain brings in much more revenue for his company, so the ability to pay him that kind of rate is there. We have to think realistically about the company's revenue generation.

I agree completely, I am speaking/thinking of a single company not "industry wide" type pay scales, ie the UPS model (or is it FedEx?).

 

[derg]

That's not a fair analogy. RC is a much better product than Subway and can charge more per meal and get that revenue. A pilot flying a 767-200 is not producing a better product than a pilot flying a 737-300.

Revenue, sir, revenue.

And productivity per unit of work.

 

[400A]

He's producing 2X the product (+/-) 120 seats for the 737, 240 for a 767

The pilot didn't produce anything, the company did by having the 767. The pilot simply operated it and its operation is no more difficult or requires anymore skill than the 737. I would be willing to bet on average the "smaller" airplane (737 etc) actually move more passengers per month and generate slightly more revenue than do long haul (off the top of my head guess). Per flight revenue can only be considered if each pilot does the same number of legs per month/year/whatever.

But I do get the argument, spit ballin here.

 

[Polar742]

The pilot didn't produce anything, the company did by having the 767. The pilot simply operated it and its operation is no more difficult or requires anymore skill than the 737. I would be willing to bet on average the "smaller" airplane (737 etc) actually move more passengers per month and generate slightly more revenue than do long haul (off the top of my head guess). Per flight revenue can only be considered if each pilot does the same number of legs per month/year/whatever.

That is simply wrong.

Pilots produce measurable units of product. That is Available Seat Miles (ASM) in the passenger world and Freight Tonne Kilometers (FTK) in the freight world.

If a pilot flies a 737 1000 hours a year and a pilot flies a 767 1000 hours a year and since both planes cruise at approximately the same speed, the 767 pilots will produce twice as much.

Add to that, given equal cruise speeds (which due to aerodynamics, widebodies tend to cruise faster), the 767 with longer stage lengths will have a higher average overall speed, thus generating more ASMs or FTKs.

 

[400A]

That is simply wrong.

Pilots produce measurable units of product. That is Available Seat Miles (ASM) in the passenger world and Freight Tonne Kilometers (FTK) in the freight world.

If a pilot flies a 737 1000 hours a year and a pilot flies a 767 1000 hours a year and since both planes cruise at approximately the same speed, the 767 pilots will produce twice as much.

Add to that, given equal cruise speeds (which due to aerodynamics, widebodies tend to cruise faster), the 767 with longer stage lengths will have a higher average overall speed, thus generating more ASMs or FTKs.

I understand, like I said all in good debate. I think our current system is broken and looking for ways to improve it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I understand, like I said all in good debate. I think our current system is broken and looking for ways to improve it.

I don't think our system is broken, I just think we've allowed our wages to be eroded far too much. Nobody ever complained about the system when a 737 CA made $230/hr and a 777 CA made $320/hr. It's when those rates got cut nearly in half that people started complaining about "the system." Once this next bargaining cycle brings the rates back up, you won't hear guys complaining about the overall system anymore.

 

[E_Dawg]

We should be paid billions of dollars.

 

[PeterPilot]

We should be paid billions of dollars.

Stay healthy and you may get to see that happen.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/21/zimbabwe-inflation-now-ov_n_102899.html

 

[Trip7]

I say the old Comair contract is an excellent STARTING point

 

[Polar742]

I say the old Comair contract is an excellent STARTING point

Since Horizon rates are higher, wouldn't that be the better start? I mean, IIRC, they were about 10% higher than Comair was at the peak, and they had QoL....

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Since Horizon rates are higher, wouldn't that be the better start? I mean, IIRC, they were about 10% higher than Comair was at the peak, and they had QoL....

Their rates were good, but the rest of the agreement paled in comparison. The CMR guys were ending up with much higher W2s at the end of the year.

 

[unclenobby]

Well, gotta factor in productivity too.

Someone at the local Subway and at Ruth's Chris both produce meals. But one is certainly producing much more revenue than the other.

Which one? I would say Subway is more productive and generating more revenue than the RC (esp in this economy!!).

Anyhow - I think to encourage/incentivize people to live close to a home base wages should be structured to reflect the cost of living at the home base. 40K + salary (not hourly) for starting F/O's based in the most expensive areas of the nation (New York etc), and fairly down from there based on local cost of living etc. Have to be living, or willing to relocate, to within a normal driving commute to get offered the job. Give pilots a more "regular" 4/5 day work week with as few overnights as possible (obviously this is aimed at regionals who are supposed to fly short legs not medium/long haul).
This way even though the rates are different throughout the country everyone gets paid the same (in theory) when local cost of living is taken into account.
Now I'm not working at an airline/in aviation (just working towards it!!) so let people start ripping this idea apart.....!!!!

 

[Trip7]

Whichever one they use, it would be an excellent start. Im mean, this is what you call quality payrates. Horizon is paying these rates to their mostly senior pilot group, and they aren't going out of business!(Like most regional management claim as soon as payraises are discussed)

I'm guessing its because they have a niche market up there in the NW and little or no competition. But just the fact that Horizon is paying these rates(and for years) proves it CAN be done.

 

[Soul Brotha']

Some might disagree with me on this but here we go anyway. The problem with pay is pilots. We are rarely ever happy. You could pay every pilot an equal amount(let's say $150K) and someone will bitch and complain. What $$ is fair? I fly way more legs than Doug does daily and probably carry the same or more passengers per month as him. I know that he only flies 6-7 times per month. I'm sure his flight generates way more revenue than mine. But who is getting him his passengers to their flights across the pond, etc. Where does one draw the line? Just my .02

 

[Polar742]

Their rates were good, but the rest of the agreement paled in comparison. The CMR guys were ending up with much higher W2s at the end of the year.

Because I'm a skeptic, and as anyone who looks at the issues should be, and you're privvy to it, just post a table to prove your point. You should have access to the data.

Just post an objective table. An oranges-to-oranges comparison if you will. Say a pilot at both companies, of the same seniority/longevity working 12 day months for 12 months.

Whichever one they use, it would be a start.

fixed

Im mean, this is what you call OK payrates.

Horizon is paying these rates to their mostly senior pilot group, and they aren't going out of business!(Like most regional management claim as soon as payraises are discussed)

Good point...

I'm guessing its because they have a niche market up there in the NW and little or no competition.

Irrelevant....the types airplanes produce the same number of ASMs as they do everywhere else in the US.

But just the fact that Horizon is paying these rates(and for years) proves it CAN be done.

Exceedingly relevant. More people should take note.

 

[Polar742]

Some might disagree with me on this but here we go anyway. The problem with pay is pilots. We are rarely ever happy. You could pay every pilot an equal amount(let's say $150K) and someone will b*tch and complain. What $$ is fair? I fly way more legs than Doug does daily and probably carry the same or more passengers per month as him. I know that he only flies 6-7 times per month. I'm sure his flight generates way more revenue than mine. But who is getting him his passengers to their flights across the pond, etc. Where does one draw the line? Just my .02

Do an ASM comparison. See who generates more. I have no idea who does, but it'd be an interesting study.

 

[400A]

I don't think our system is broken, I just think we've allowed our wages to be eroded far too much. Nobody ever complained about the system when a 737 CA made $230/hr and a 777 CA made $320/hr. It's when those rates got cut nearly in half that people started complaining about "the system." Once this next bargaining cycle brings the rates back up, you won't hear guys complaining about the overall system anymore.

I agree to a point. It is a valid argument, or was, when there was some light at the end of the tunnel and you realistically had a chance of upgrading to Capt in either aircraft in a reasonable amount of time. Now that the industry has down shifted a few gears maybe we need to look at alternative ways of how pay is structured.

Would a NetJets(esque) type of system work, salary and override pay for days off instead of hourly and min BUG? How much is a day worth to a 12 year 777 Capt? I have no idea.

Skewed payscales are fine as long as there is reasonable movement that allows folks to move up the seniority list and realize those higher payscales. Do we keep what we have in the hopes that this too shall pass or do we start working to revamp it so it this doesn't pass in short order or if it happens again, the blow is less severe to the bottom occupents of the seniority list? I don't have the answer.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Because I'm a skeptic, and as anyone who looks at the issues should be, and you're privvy to it, just post a table to prove your point. You should have access to the data.

Just post an objective table. An oranges-to-oranges comparison if you will. Say a pilot at both companies, of the same seniority/longevity working 12 day months for 12 months.

That data is proprietary, my friend. ALPA sells their E & FA product via services agreements, so the information isn't put out there publicly. You can certainly pay them $30,000 a month to provide it to you, though.

I agree to a point. It is a valid argument, or was, when there was some light at the end of the tunnel and you realistically had a chance of upgrading to Capt in either aircraft in a reasonable amount of time. Now that the industry has down shifted a few gears maybe we need to look at alternative ways of how pay is structured.

The current industry condition is temporary. Things will get better. In a few years the retirements will start again at record rates, and seniority lists will start moving again. This is probably the worst downturn that this industry has experienced, but the upswing will also be one of the best in history, in my opinion. Don't let the current situation get you down.

 

[Polar742]

That data is proprietary, my friend. ALPA sells their E & FA product via services agreements, so the information isn't put out there publicly. You can certainly pay them $30,000 a month to provide it to you, though.

Nice smartass reply. Thanks for my daily dose of condensention. I'm glad you spread it around equally. There are a thousand different ways to say what you said without being a jerk. A good leader would have used one of those ways instead.

I didn't have any of that good data when I was an ALPA member. And I take it that either a) your leadership style is management by exclusion b) you want us to believe that you know more than you do c) the data points don't back up your claim

In any case, for someone that claims and usurps leadership roles, you are definately not the person I'd want to be my leadership. I'd be to afraid your personal agenda, that of you think you're smarter than the rest of us so we should follow along, would get in the way of representing the wishes of the pilot group.