How much ground time should I be charged? (CFIs enter please)

Vflyer

Vflyer

Well-Known Member
Here's a typical lesson:

I book some time from 10:30-12:30 and get about an hour of flight time in. I get charged 1 hour of C172 time (obvious), 1 hour of flight time with instructor (obvious), and then 1 hour of ground school time (not so obvious). Problem is, is there is about 30-45 minutes of me pre-flighting, getting fuel, finding where they stashed the oil, going to the bathroom, etc. The instructor in the meantime is talking in the hangar, helping someone clear a mag, eating a hot pocket, or standing around watching me.

Back in the day when I used to fly, I worked at a flight school, and since I was buddies with everyone, no one ever charged me any ground school for just sitting around. In the above example, there may be times where there is a true 20 minutes of explaining something to me, but certainly not an hour.

So I'm curious, is this the norm? I can somewhat understand if I block my instructors time from 10:30-12:30, he wants to be paid for that, and I'm sure I'll be singing the same tune when I'm a CFI. On the flipside I'm not learning anything when he is nowhere to be found most of the time.

I do remember back in the day, the owner of the school I worked at used to encourage CFI's to bill for their time regardless if the student was just preflighting. Some instructors didn't think it was right, others said heck yea! This has been a long time ago, so I'd like to know what to expect and accept as the norm nowadays.

I should also add, that I always try to arrive 10 minutes ahead of my schedule time and be completely ready with a weather briefing, TFRs noted, relevant materials in hand, etc. I'm not sure if this counts for anything, but I remember seeing instructors being very upset when students weren't ready through the door.
 
You book a time slot starting at 1030. Can you show up at 1000, get the wx and preflight. Then have his ass in the right seat at 1030? Make him work for you. But if you show up at 1030 and it takes 45 minutes for you to get ready I don't think the instructor should have to take that time unpaid. He's got to eat. He should also be explaining this to you.

Let him know about your concerns and work out the problem.
 
It goes either way, as the customer feel free to bring this up to your instructor and by all means take your business to an instructor that charges what you see fit, if you can't find one then you have a dilemma, but not until then.

I personally give the student 18 minutes of the two hour block (.3) to preflight. Most bills came to 1.7, and if we finished prior to the two hour block, the left over tenths would also be subtracted.
 
Their time is worth something but if you're unhappy with the situation either tell him you expect him to be instructing all of the time he's billing or find another instructor. I would expect to at least have my CFI next to me talking sports if he's on the clock. Haha
 
I only billed for the time I was doing a related activity for the student. We did 2 hour blocks, I would do a bit of ground, he/she would go out in preflight (I did not bill during his/her preflight unless I was showing them how to preflight), we go fly, post flight, debrief, then done. If I was sneaking in a sandwich while the student was preflighting I would not bill for that obviously. Now, if a student books me at 6am, and I verbally verify with that student that he/she will show up at 6am, then doesn't, I bill for that time because it is a waste of MY time. I never tolerated students wasting my time. But at the same time, I never billed them for time that I wasn't there specifically for them.
 
When I was a CFI, the clock would start ticking at soon as we started talking about the flight to the moment we said goodbye. Never was a problem, but it has to be well explained by your CFI.
 
Inverted said:
I only billed for the time I was doing a related activity for the student. We did 2 hour blocks, I would do a bit of ground, he/she would go out in preflight (I did not bill during his/her preflight unless I was showing them how to preflight), we go fly, post flight, debrief, then done. If I was sneaking in a sandwich while the student was preflighting I would not bill for that obviously. Now, if a student books me at 6am, and I verbally verify with that student that he/she will show up at 6am, then doesn't, I bill for that time because it is a waste of MY time. I never tolerated students wasting my time. But at the same time, I never billed them for time that I wasn't there specifically for them.
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That's how I bill as well.
 
I tried to bill block time minus 15 minutes, cause technically I guess I could be preflighting with you. any time you are preflighting/checking wx/weight and balance/performance calculations/etc during the block time that goes over the 0.3, you are paying for. Because checking wx/weight and balance/performance should be done by the time you walk in the office door. All my students were told this on day one, most of the ones who ran afoul usually started complaining about it around month 2. these were also the ones who werent paying attention on day 1.
 
From the time I'm available and present, and the student's scheduled block has started, I charge.
 
@Vflyer I don't understand why it takes 30-45 minutes to get the airplane ready. It seems odd that they don't require the previous renter to fuel the aircraft before he returns it. Anyways, your instructor has a right to be paid for the time you reserved with him. It sounds like he isn't doing much to earn it, but it also sort of seems like a lot of this stuff should have been done prior to your lesson starting.

Perhaps next time you could arrange to meet him at 11:00 and already have the aircraft preflighted, fueled, and ready to go?
 
I charged from the moment we were supposed to meet till the time we finish. However, I would sit in my office and be available for the student rather than doing other things if they were late.
 
If you book me for two hours, I generally charge you for two hours regardless of how much we fly. However, I recognize I am serving you for those two hours, so other than a preflight trip to the bathroom, I'm either with you every minute, or I am doing some type of work for you. (For example, I might finish up some paperwork while you start the preflight.) At the schools I taught, we had self serve fuel pumps and we had to service the aircraft after every flight, so I would always hang around to help put the airplane to bed. During that time, I was able to do much of the debrief in a casual way that allowed me to reinforce learning before the engine cooled.

Sometimes students would arrive for a lesson unprepared, and I'd stand there and watch them fill out a flight plan, do the weight and balance, etc. But I was there with them. I always figured that they were buying my hour, and they could spend it however they wanted.

If your CFI is charging you for time he's not providing service to you, then he's cheating you.
 
I used to very relaxed about it, but now I'm billing the remainder of the block. Frequently I tell students that you have my undivided attention for the next X hours. Ask away, anything airplane related is fair game. My therapist rate is different and I charge accordingly for that.

Frankly if you have a good CFI, then you'll want every minute of their time and it is money well spent. However if the instructor isn't devoted to you and your objective, then you should discuss that with them.
 
For my private and instrument, I bet I paid for less than 8 hours of non-flight time combined. I did it at a mom and pop part 61 FBO, studied before every lesson, and got a 95ish on my written about 3 lessons in. We used the taxi, flying to the practice area, and other such time to talk about the lessons. I paid the instructor hobbs time, and that was about it.
 
When I took primary training my CFI almost invariably billed me for .2 over hobbs time. I usually had my stuff together for my flight, so we didn't spend a lot of time on the ground. I am sure that some days we didn't even spend .2 outside the aircraft, and sometimes we spent more than that, I am sure it evened out and I was happy with that arrangement.
 
Is this the norm? In my experience, no. Most instructors (again, in my experience) include only the Hobbs for the flight and whatever extra was spent on active instruction/briefing, which varied from flight to flight.

However, is this acceptable or justifiable? I would say yes, although the student and instructor should certainly have discussed billing policy beforehand and be on the same page.

Even if not every second is spent on active instruction, I find that an unreasonably strict standard to apply for determining how much to bill. Other professional services that bill by the hour certainly don't have such a strict standard. Instructor downtime during preflight or aircraft servicing doesn't magically mean you are at home sipping coffee. You are still on-site monitoring the progress of a flight for which you have final responsibility.

However, I have known instructors in the past who took advantage of students - so they do certainly exist. Some of the behaviors you describe (helping other students, flagrantly socializing, or snacking) could be considered unprofessional. The instructor doesn't have to follow you around like a puppy, ready to answer any aeronautical question at a moment's notice, in order to bill you for the time. However, they should be sensitive to the possibility of you feeling taken advantage of if they bill you for time while they appear to be goofing around.

At the end of the day, the fact you were bothered enough to post this thread tells me your instructor is not acting like a professional.
 
Oh, and one more thing - your instructor should definitely be helping you make your preflight as efficient as possible, including having it done and the plane all ready before you're scheduled with the instructor whenever possible. However, in my experience, the unpredictable nature of flight school operations (when the previous student gets back, switching planes for maintenance, weather, etc.) prevented this from happening most of the time. It's definitely an ideal to strive for, however.
 
I didn't read any of the other posts and I haven't been a CFI in quite a while but I'll throw in my opinion.

Your CFI is a professional. If you book a doctor, or a lawyer, or a moving companies time you pay for it because their time is worth money. So is your instructor's.

When I was a CFI my clock started at our scheduled start time and ended when the student walked out the door. For an advanced student I would subtract .2 for preflight because they didn't need me, or have questions etc.

There are also things behind the scenes like paperwork, scheduling, etc. that you do not see but still costs your instructor time outside of your scheduled block.

If you are at a University type program, or any 141 for that matter, keep in mind that the lesson may call for 1 hour of ground and 1 hour of flight. So the records(and the pay) need to show as such.

All that being said, if you feel like you are being taken advantage of ask him about it. I don't think your are being unreasonably charged though.
 
flyinguitar said:
Oh, and one more thing - your instructor should definitely be helping you make your preflight as efficient as possible, including having it done and the plane all ready before you're scheduled with the instructor whenever possible. However, in my experience, the unpredictable nature of flight school operations (when the previous student gets back, switching planes for maintenance, weather, etc.) prevented this from happening most of the time. It's definitely an ideal to strive for, however.
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Just so I'm sure you are saying that the instructor should preflight the aircraft for a student PRIOR to the student showing up?

Also this action should be unpaid?
 
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