How much can a DPE charge?

[IslandFlyer]

I would gladly pay the DPE over taking another ride with the FSDO! But all checkrides at the two places I have worked at hooks were $400. That is five differerent examiners, and it made no difference what the chekride was.

Little differenet for me. Had my Commercial checkride scheduled with one guy ($300) but last minute he wasn't going to be back in town so I had to switch to another DPE and he charged me ($400) .

Then my Multi add on when I had that scheduled was going to be $300 I believe it was (then the nose gear collapsed right before the checkride so I'm still waiting on that to get fixed)

And taking my CFII initial ride with the FSDO but the DPE I'm doing my CFI add-on with is charging $450.

By setting up the program, the Feds have tacitly stated they don't want to do the job, don't have time to do the job and would rather others do it for them. And as part of the incentive they allow the DPEs to charge a market rate. Becoming a DPE is not a walk in the park and staying one isn't either.

In today's ATL paper, there is a similar screed about doctor's and their compensation. Cynthia Tucker, resident whiner, says that while many doctors want only the best for their patients, some actually want to PROFIT.

I guess the concurrent theme is we all should be working for min wages.

Not necessarily hot shot.

Remember the original post was to figure out if there was something set in place regulating the amount these guys charge. I thought maybe there was something in place that I hadn't heard about but apprently there isn't.

And if you're implying that I think the DPE should be working for min wage you're wrong; however, I do think that if you're charging almost $500 for a checkride and it takes you 3-4 hours to complete....well I'm sorry to say, but $125/hr isn't even close to minimum wage.

Cheers!:beer:

 

[wjmiller3]

Little differenet for me. Had my Commercial checkride scheduled with one guy ($300) but last minute he wasn't going to be back in town so I had to switch to another DPE and he charged me ($400) .

Then my Multi add on when I had that scheduled was going to be $300 I believe it was (then the nose gear collapsed right before the checkride so I'm still waiting on that to get fixed)

And taking my CFII initial ride with the FSDO but the DPE I'm doing my CFI add-on with is charging $450.

Who with? I know you have done one with R.E., and he has never in the past changed rates based on what the ride is.

 

[Orange Anchor]

Not necessarily hot shot.

Remember the original post was to figure out if there was something set in place regulating the amount these guys charge. I thought maybe there was something in place that I hadn't heard about but apprently there isn't.

And if you're implying that I think the DPE should be working for min wage you're wrong; however, I do think that if you're charging almost $500 for a checkride and it takes you 3-4 hours to complete....well I'm sorry to say, but $125/hr isn't even close to minimum wage.

Cheers!:beer:

Not "hot shot' but if you believe the costs revolve around just you and the checkride, you might ask your AME nex time to check for myopia. You seem to have a narrow vision.

But here's an idea. Why don't you be pro-active and post what you are willing to pay for a check ride and leave it at a number of FBOs. Or maybe just call the DPEs up, complain about their costs and ask if they will give you a cut-rate. There are plenty of solutions. And of course, there is the FSDO which is free and plenty of hot shot aviators use them.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

All the DPE in my area meet, and discuss what their charges will be. That way no one DPE is giving a better deal and getting all the rides.

Isn't this illegal (at least in theory?) Having a government-granted monopoly (the FAA intentionally avoids ever having a surplus of DPEs), and then colluding on price would seem to violate the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. The DPEs are essentially a cartel (like OPEC), and the anti trust act makes price fixing by cartels a no-no in the US.

Oil companies and Airlines used to get in trouble for such behavior all of the time.

 

[ricecakecm]

DPE's have costs just like any other business. They have to take a checkride each year with their POI. That comes out of their pocket. Before they are even appointed as a DE, they go to OKC for a week of training. Again, on their dime. Every year they have to go to a DPE seminar. Sometimes there are costs associated with this.

Some FSDOs require DPEs to maintain an office. While some have the advantage of being able to use their day to day office for this, some do not.

Some DPEs do nothing but give checkrides to make ends meet. Most FSDOs limit them to two checkrides per day. So that would be $700-1000 a day max. But they're not going to give a checkride every day more than likley. Nor are they always going to do two rides in a day. Contract pilots usually make between $300 and $1000 a day depending on what they fly. DPEs are just providing another professional service.

The FAA doesn't have the manpower to do every Private, Instrument, Commercial, CFI, multi add-on, etc. in their district in addition to providing oversight for the other types of operations they deal with along with their other responsibilities. So they entrust DPEs to do this work.

 

[LatitudeDancer]

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" forums.jetcareers.com="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg">My favorites are the DPEs that get pissed as hell when you don’t show up with cash…had the guy who gave me my IFR checkride drive me to an ATM to get cash out because I showed up with a check even though I was previously warned to bring cash only…just wanted to see what he would do. Basically all we did was hold over an intersection that just happened to be over his house so he could tell me what it looked like from the air.
At least in south Florida they are allowed to do 2.5 rides a day (0.5 =’ing a retake). $1,000 a day in cash is effed up. I wonder how much of that gets reported to the IRS. I know many a DPE that put grand children (plural) through college with their “salaries.” But it does sound like real work though (paper work, etc), but for that kind of cash?...
I know some that spend 2-3 hours with CFI initial candidates and charge $650, that’s probably the highest I’ve heard of.

</o:smarttagtype>

 

[IslandFlyer]

Who with? I know you have done one with R.E., and he has never in the past changed rates based on what the ride is.

Between 3 different guys, and R.E. seems to be pretty fair. PM me if you you want the names. Not sure if you guys use all of the ones we do.

 

[IslandFlyer]

Not "hot shot' but if you believe the costs revolve around just you and the checkride, you might ask your AME nex time to check for myopia. You seem to have a narrow vision.

But here's an idea. Why don't you be pro-active and post what you are willing to pay for a check ride and leave it at a number of FBOs. Or maybe just call the DPEs up, complain about their costs and ask if they will give you a cut-rate. There are plenty of solutions. And of course, there is the FSDO which is free and plenty of hot shot aviators use them.

Myopia, I'll look into that.

 

[BCTAv8r]

<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:smarttagtype class=inlineimg title=Embarrassment alt="" smilieid="2" border="0" redface.gif="" smilies="" images="" forums.jetcareers.com="" http:="" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=">My favorites are the DPEs that get pissed as hell when you don’t show up with cash…had the guy who gave me my IFR checkride drive me to an ATM to get cash out because I showed up with a check even though I was previously warned to bring cash only…just wanted to see what he would do. Basically all we did was hold over an intersection that just happened to be over his house so he could tell me what it looked like from the air.
At least in south Florida they are allowed to do 2.5 rides a day (0.5 =’ing a retake). $1,000 a day in cash is effed up. I wonder how much of that gets reported to the IRS. I know many a DPE that put grand children (plural) through college with their “salaries.” But it does sound like real work though (paper work, etc), but for that kind of cash?...
I know some that spend 2-3 hours with CFI initial candidates and charge $650, that’s probably the highest I’ve heard of.

</o:smarttagtype>

DPEs have to accrue quite a bit of experience to get where they are, correct? How about not paying them like it's an entry level position?

 

[crazyjeep]

I worked hard, and was on the ball and exceeded PTS standards for my checkrides. But the system is a joke. I have never had a checkride last longer than an hour. I have never had an oral longer than 30 min other than my initial CFI. Again, that was a joke. My CFI oral consisted of, VFR flight planning, and VMC demo, then it was, I have leave early for a trip, so lets go fly.

The prices are crazy. I paid 500$ for cfi initial. I think it was at most 2 hrs long. All my other checkrides were 350$ , except my last ride. My last ride was 100$, done with the same examiner I had rode with the previous two checkrides. Hell, Did 3 checkrides, in 3 days back to back. first day CFI-I(rocked that), second day Comm SE, third day CFI se addon.

The last day, we went up, flew around, had a little lazy 8 competition, then landed the plane. Couldnt have last more than 20 min, including runup. The oral was, how parts does a 172 have. I said wing, tail, engine, etc. The reply was, Lets go fly.

Now, I had flown with that examiner the previous two days, He knew I could fly, and I did the required maneuvers the previous day. For what these examiners do, 500$ is crazy overpaid, 350$ still overpaid in my mind. 100$ was low. I think 200$ per ride is fair. If I got busted at 350$, I might be upset. 200$, I'd take it in stride and come back the next day. I hate the examiners that bust you, then charge the same fee the next day. Fortunately I had only one bust, My private. Learned alot on that checkride that set me straight. I think everyone needs a bust under their belt, too much ego is a bad thing.

 

[BCTAv8r]

How much harder is it to use the FSDO? Don't they still follow the TPS, so that they can't fail you if you stay within those parameters?

 

[PeterPilot]

The answer to the original question comes from FAA Order 8700.1 Chapter 15. A DPE may “Charge each applicant a reasonable fee for services. The amount of the fee and the effect of passing or failing a practical test on the fee should be clearly understood by the applicant before the examiner accepts an application.”
<O</O
To address some of the other issues that were raised along the way:
<O</O
It isn’t the FAA that wants or doesn’t want to do practical test, it is Congress. There was a time when the FAA did every test, but Congress mandated the examiner system. That is the same political pressure that requires contractors instead of civil servants in many positions.
<O</O
Anyone who feels the examiners in their district are not doing their job properly or that the FSDO is not overseeing their activities properly can make a complaint to the head of flight standards service by going to [URL="http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/qms"]www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/qms[/URL]
You can do so anonymously if you are concerned about retaliation.
<O</O
Regarding the concern that the examiner who requires cash is not reporting his income to the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" /><st1:stockticker>IRS</st1:stockticker>, you can contact the <st1:stockticker>IRS</st1:stockticker> and report that suspicion and receive a percentage of any money recovered as a result. Proving the fact one way or another would not be difficult since the examiner is required by the FAA to keep records of all tests administered and the <st1:stockticker>IRS</st1:stockticker> need only bounce those records against reported income statements.

 

[IslandFlyer]

The answer to the original question comes from FAA Order 8700.1 Chapter 15. A DPE may “Charge each applicant a reasonable fee for services. The amount of the fee and the effect of passing or failing a practical test on the fee should be clearly understood by the applicant before the examiner accepts an application.”
<O</O
To address some of the other issues that were raised along the way:
<O</O
It isn’t the FAA that wants or doesn’t want to do practical test, it is Congress. There was a time when the FAA did every test, but Congress mandated the examiner system. That is the same political pressure that requires contractors instead of civil servants in many positions.
<O</O
Anyone who feels the examiners in their district are not doing their job properly or that the FSDO is not overseeing their activities properly can make a complaint to the head of flight standards service by going to [URL="http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/qms"]www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/qms[/URL]
You can do so anonymously if you are concerned about retaliation.
<O</O
Regarding the concern that the examiner who requires cash is not reporting his income to the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" /><st1:stockticker>IRS</st1:stockticker>, you can contact the <st1:stockticker>IRS</st1:stockticker> and report that suspicion and receive a percentage of any money recovered as a result. Proving the fact one way or another would not be difficult since the examiner is required by the FAA to keep records of all tests administered and the <st1:stockticker>IRS</st1:stockticker> need only bounce those records against reported income statements.

Thanks for the info Peter.

 

[Barty]

And if you're implying that I think the DPE should be working for min wage you're wrong; however, I do think that if you're charging almost $500 for a checkride and it takes you 3-4 hours to complete....well I'm sorry to say, but $125/hr isn't even close to minimum wage.

Cheers!:beer:

You're assuming that they're doing checkrides 8 hours a day, 5 days a week too though. Some of these guys are only available maybe 2-3 days a week tops and may only do one ride a day. For many DPEs, it is simply a way of making some extra money and is not a primary source of income, although I have noticed that those tend to be the ones that are more reasonably priced exactly for that reason. DPEs that are getting 3-4 rides a day from a part 141 pilot mill are probably charging as much as they think the school will bear, which is probably much higher than what an individual would think was reasonable.

Fortunately the two checkrides I've taken were all pretty reasonable in my opinion. My private was $180 (although that was in 2001) and my instrument $300.

 

[Orange Anchor]

For what these examiners do, 500$ is crazy overpaid, 350$ still overpaid in my mind. 100$ was low. I think 200$ per ride is fair. If I got busted at 350$, I might be upset. 200$, I'd take it in stride and come back the next day. I hate the examiners that bust you, then charge the same fee the next day. Fortunately I had only one bust, My private. Learned alot on that checkride that set me straight. I think everyone needs a bust under their belt, too much ego is a bad thing.

So you equate cost of the ride with assurance you will pass?

Your last comment reminds me of an FAA inspector who was opining to a group of pilots and he said, 'The real measure of a training department is their bust record. Any outfit which doesn't bust about 25% of the checkrides is flawed."

I wasn't a check airman at the time and offered, "Any outfit that has a bust rate of 25% has a real problem with how it preps pilots for check rides. If the bust rate is that high, they are NOT preparing the pilots for the ride and should not recommend them for a ride until they can pass."

Later, as a check airman, I generally had a fairly good idea of how the ride would go within the first hour of the brief and ride. Usually the ride only confirmed what had occurred earlier.

But a bust is good? On just about any ride, if one wants to, you can hand out a pink.

 

[BillErvin]

All the DPE in my area meet, and discuss what their charges will be. That way no one DPE is giving a better deal and getting all the rides.

Isn't this illegal (at least in theory?)

I believe they call it "price fixing" in most law enforcement circles

 

[IslandFlyer]

You're assuming that they're doing checkrides 8 hours a day, 5 days a week too though. Some of these guys are only available maybe 2-3 days a week tops and may only do one ride a day. For many DPEs, it is simply a way of making some extra money and is not a primary source of income, although I have noticed that those tend to be the ones that are more reasonably priced exactly for that reason. DPEs that are getting 3-4 rides a day from a part 141 pilot mill are probably charging as much as they think the school will bear, which is probably much higher than what an individual would think was reasonable.

Fortunately the two checkrides I've taken were all pretty reasonable in my opinion. My private was $180 (although that was in 2001) and my instrument $300.

Please elaborate. Show me the comments that I've made to make you draw this conclusion.

I haven't assumed anything about the DPE's I've met and worked with. As a matter of fact, all of the DPE's I know down here are Continental pilots. So assuming that these guys do this 8 hours a day 5 days a week is ridiculous. I'm sure with their level of experience, time in the industry, and senority at their company, I'm AM ASSUMING the amount they charge is chump change compared to their salaries.

 

[launchpad]

What Orange Anchor said is very true. You can determine a pilot's skill and confidence in a matter of minutes. You don't need to see the chandelles and lazy eights. Basic skills, common sense, and preparation all show their face during the oral portion of a checkride. I've never failed a checkride where the oral portion was good. I have failed 2 checkrides during my career where I botched the oral, and the flight turned out to be a confirmation of my lack of performance.

These DPE's are extremely experienced individuals. They've been instructors for many many years. They know what kind of pilot they're dealing with almost immediately. Let's not complain about how much they charge. The DPE's have been around the block, proven themselves, and are contributing to aviation. We can ALL learn from their skill and self respect.

 

[Barty]

Please elaborate. Show me the comments that I've made to make you draw this conclusion.

I haven't assumed anything about the DPE's I've met and worked with. As a matter of fact, all of the DPE's I know down here are Continental pilots. So assuming that these guys do this 8 hours a day 5 days a week is ridiculous. I'm sure with their level of experience, time in the industry, and senority at their company, I'm AM ASSUMING the amount they charge is chump change compared to their salaries.

I'm basing the rate off of a 40 hour work week. I'm assuming that they have nothing else going on during their down time, which in effect, makes their effective income per hour less, assuming that's all they do for a living. I wasn't trying to argue with you, but just presenting an alternate point of view.