How low can the mins go?

[MikeD]

Appreciate the posting FlyChicaga. I don't really like the term SJS either. However the reality is, the term is real and there are people that believe in it as gospel, unfortunately.

So much poorly aimed frustration about the current situation at the airlines. Why must we continue to be at each others throats? It's not the new hires right now at the regionals. It's partly everyones fault here for this trend. Particularly, management. They are running these companies into the ground, setting ticket prices at terribly low rates with fuel prices skyrocketing through the roof. We are all--even the low-paid regional folks--funding these airlines in bankrupcy with paycuts and reduced benefits.

Everyone does have a stake in the fault of where the industry is now. I agree on that.

All this talk of SJS: Give me a break! The pilots at the majors are folding like a house of cards, giving up pensions, pay, benefits, left and right. Why? Do they have SJS too, hoping to keep their jobs in this downturn? Why don't they just quit? It's because we all have so much invested in this career, we are hoping that short-term downs will turn around to long-term ups. Problem is, these short-term downs are stretching out longer and longer than expected.

SJS is real, though. Like it or not. And the term comes primarily from the new hires. That's a fact. Newhires have nothing vested...no time in, unlike the mainliners. These newbies are coming into a crappy situation such as $18K FO slots, and accepting it as "good to go", or "that's just how it is at a regional", or "I've got my 3 stripes and white shirt, who cares how much I'm getting paid...hell, I'd do this for free!". This attitude directly enables management to do what it's doing. JO, for example, has the power he does, simply because the rank and file give him the power to do so. They send the message loud and clear that they're worth nothing, giving daily reassurance to his belief that "...of course pilots are overpaid. Why should I pay pilots $40K when there's a ton of SJS/epaulet/white shirt suckers ready/willing/able to do it for $15K?" And he's absolutely correct. Pilots are their own worst enemy. Pilots need to look in the mirror. Talk is cheap. Everyone talks about "we must pull together", but these same people are the same ones that will walk all over the other to take the same crappy-pay regional job. As long as this goes on, regional pilots will never have a leg to stand on to try and improve anything. That's because, to people like JO, things are great already.....I mean, there's TONS of demand for the jobs he has available. And tons of suckers behind them.

The fact is, there have only been so many good paying jobs in aviation. Few and far between. There have always been more crap-paying jobs at the supplemental carriers, charters, corporate outfits, and smaller airlines. Yeah, there are your big legacies, and your Fortune 100 companies, but other than that, there haven't been many good-paying jobs. Problem is, all these me-me-me, now-now-now Generation Xers want these good paying jobs they were promised in the Flying Magazine ads for the past 10 years RIGHT NOW. We didn't have a strong sense of reality about life as a pilot, because the powers that be spoonfed us massive amounts of bullshoot for years. So now we are "stuck" at the regionals, and are scapegoats.

I have a hard time believing that regional pilots are all innocent doe-eyed victims in all of this. Take a look in the mirror. Though regional pilots aren't solely responsible, they do share blame (as you've alluded, to be fair). Glossy-ad Flying magazine ads are what they are....(thank places like DCA/ATA, etc, et al for that). But I think that regional pilots will never have the unity they need to make any sort of change, so long as there's a constant stream of suckers to take the job for lesser and lesser pay. And that's unfortunate. The regionals have the great potential to be a good, solid place to work. But until pilots stop proving to management how much of a bunch of • they are, then regionals will always maintain the crappy, stepping-stone reputation they have now.

Why are we scapegoats? Because we are flying routes that used to be mainline with regional aircraft. Whose fault is that? 1: Management. They set what aircraft fly what routes. 2: The pilots at the majors, trying to scope out the RJs instead of assimilating them into their companies. 3: The regional pilots, for continuing to think it's OK to fly these routes for BS pay... even taking concessions to continue doing so! We're also an easy target because of our position in the industry: The new guys. The majors are fortunate that they only must compete with each other. The regionals not only must compete in the market for their current brand, but they also must fight for feed. So regional management can pit pilot groups against one another. We can see it here, day after day. So much back and forth "my airline is better than yours" bullshoot. We should be sticking together, but management has created the perfect inter-company rift.

Management: Agree with you. Mainline scope: Agree with you. Regional pilots: Agree with you, like I explained before. I fully agree that sticking together is paramount. But again, with the constant stack of resumes sitting on JOs desk with doe-eyed SJSers waiting to take your job for much less, how can anyone make "sticking together" work? Where does it need to start?

Whatever it is, times are changing. Pilots now are moving from skilled stick-and-rudder operators with calm nerves and a relaxed demenor to Gen X Nintendo-type computer operators, always on edge and hyped up on Starbucks. It's easy to get on a computer now and complain about the industry, then take terms like "SJS" and "PFT" and throw them around like insults on the line to feel tough. If we'd just shut up for a minute, and start working together, then ALPA might be somewhat effective. It sure won't be effective--and you all will keep complaining about our union--without unity between the pilot groups. Especially at the regionals. It dumbfounds me to see people on here HAPPY at the demise of another airline. It's only a short time before you are next...

Again, SJS and PFT are real concepts, as you well know. Again, agree on working together being a good idea, but will never happen at the regionals for the aforementioned reasons. Agree, being happy at someone else's demise isn't wise, since as you say, yours could be just around the corner.

Sorry that you weren't at a major in three or four years after starting at a regional by 21. Sorry you aren't making $100,000 yet, by age 26. Guess what: That's how it was always going to work. You weren't going to get to UPS or FedEx or SWA by 26! You weren't guaranteed that quick EMB-170 upgrade. I've even fallen victim to the "woe is me" attitude every so often, wondering how long I'll be "stuck" at the regionals. You know what? I don't care. Just keep increasing pay and benefits, and start working to ensure some job security. We won't get either of those things fighting each other like this. So all you'll have is crappy pay, no benefits, and ever-decreasing job security while trying to fight for those major airline jobs that don't exist.

Pay should be commensurate with the job responsibility at the regionals. I've long said that pay should be much higher starting.....like $45K or so......something liveable and respectable. Not this $18K crap. So long as we have SJSers that think $18K for being a regional FO is "awesome", or are otherwise unwilling to do anything about it, then regionals will never get anywhere. Like I said before, regionals have great potential.

Seriously, how many of you really still believe that when you get 1000 PIC that SWA, FedEx, and JetBlue will be knocking at your door? Is that why you are taking these paycuts and only making $55,000 as an RJ Captain? So you can get to a major faster than your brethren at such-and-such other regional? Give me a break. Reality check: You'll be here for a while.

Agree.

 

[kellwolf]

I don't really have a problem with low first year pay in any organization. It's a fact of life that you should get paid according to your experience, and for most, the regionals are the first 121 job they've had. In addition, for most (if not all) of that first year, you're a probationary employee. What I have a problem with is that regional pay stays low for years and even into upgrades. THAT's where the difference needs to be made. Past contracts have sold that pay up the river since everyone was banking on being long gone by then. Now that people are still at regionals 5-10 years later, they're realizing that giving on that part of the contract wasn't such a good idea in the first place.

 

[Check_Six]

Current culture...

I agree that a major problem affecting the industry is the large applicant pool willing to accept unreasonable working conditions. I've heard from my dad many times aobut the past effectiveness of strikes and the ability for pilot groups and unions to sccessfully counter management. Pilots struck becuase they knew that the social culture of America was such that many of their jobs would be waiting. My old man knew only one guy that crossed the picket line, and the rest of that pilot's career was very quiet as no one would even speak to him unless it was for running procedures in the cockpit. In a perfect world...new and experience building pilots would boycott regional jobs altogether allowing the unions a chance to improve the situation. Having regional pilots striking with an assurance that scabs, SJSers, etc. wouldn't take their jobs would truly retake the industry from [censored] like J.O. Those wanting to be regional pilots someday should help organize and be standing on pickett lines right next to the pilots...encouraging them. As many have already mentioned, that kind of attitude is the only thing that will save us all. We all need respect and support for those that have come before us (rather than feeding off their carcasses). I hope to see it happen 'cause I'm tired of seeing CEOs like Glen Tilton and J.O. living well while pilots starve and lose their pensions.

If any of you current regional pilots strike...be sure to save me a spot and a sign!

Check_Six