How low can the mins go?

[ready2fly]

Hell, I got just shy of 1000 and I can't buy a job.......

Oh wait.... yeah I could!

(and yeah...I consider myself to be VERY low time).

Hey - you guys keep it up. This is interesting. So far, I've seen two guys in a pissing contest do nothing but do so into fans.

Now we have a high-timer jumping into the act when he's been here before - he knows better.. It's like trying to break rock with a Wiffle Ball Bat.

But, hey....... continue. I'm enjoying this.

 

[Check_Six]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, who really has 300 hour pilots out there? Pinnacle maybe had some awhile ago, colgan? Who else? I think they would be a very small group.

[/ QUOTE ]

I called FSA a few weeks ago to see about direct track options. I was interested in pricing and how the different programs work. The guy I spoke to indicated that since I had already done my training there that I would need to complete a 3-week IFR refresher in a Seminole, but after that would have the option to interview with ASA, American Eagle, Trans States, and one other that I can't remember. My impression was that the airlines that liked you from the interview would offer a C.O.E. (conditional offer of employment), approximately 10 weeks of training would follow, ending with a checkride. Pass the checkride and welcome to the show. I'm sure that there are slight differences in each program, but my calculations were as follows: (using ASA as an example)

Program Hours
CIME: 190 - in various
IFR Refresher: 12 - in Seminole (if necessary)
Interview:
C.O.E.:
ASA Phase III: 30 - in Seminole ("LOFT" training)
ASA Phase IV: (36) (in level D ERJ or Saab 2000 sim)

Total: 232hrs

+ (36) Level D sim

I can't speak for the other programs, but I assume they might be the same. So, I suppose that's 4 regionals using 300ish hour pilots. According to what I was told maybe less than 300hrs spent in the air.

NOTE: Not pushing FSA...I just thought this might be interesting for some to see. I haven't checked any other schools, but I'd be interested to know if the programs are similar in hour requirements. I'll give the experienced guys in this room my nod for being a little concerned about these guys directly out of CIME...I've picked up a couple hundred hours of CFI time before even remotely considering direct track.

 

[project7]

[ QUOTE ]
It's like trying to break rock with a Wiffle Ball Bat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry R2F, but I'm totally stealing that.

 

[Kristie]

Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well, yea... cuz those bathrooms are t.i.n.y...


[/ QUOTE ]

Not True!!! The ERJ has a relatively large bathroom, larger than most of the narrow body aircraft. But the CRJ sure does have a tiny bathroom.

This is one thing I am sure of!! I'm always in the ERJ can and it's nice!!

[/ QUOTE ] oops sorry.... i thought the ERJ was similar to the CRJ.. i really meant the CRJ bathrooms!

guess i need to be doing more homework!

 

[derg]

Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

We've only been on an ERJ once, going to Grand Rapids in 2001.

 

[Rocketman99]

[ QUOTE ]
Total: 232hrs

+ (36) Level D sim

I can't speak for the other programs, but I assume they might be the same. So, I suppose that's 4 regionals using 300ish hour pilots. According to what I was told maybe less than 300hrs spent in the air.


[/ QUOTE ]

My God, that is absolutely frightening! Please tell me those numbers are wrong and that's not really happening?

 

[Check_Six]

Well, the FSA 141 syllabus finishes a CIME student with a minimum of 190hrs (assuming no yellow sheets or failed stage checks). If you trained under part 61 guidelines then a CIME applicant for the ASA program would have a minimum of 250 hours. Afterwhich, instead of a 12 hour IFR refresher, a pilot would have to spend a couple of weeks proving flight proficiency...that would probably add about 15-20hrs to the 250. Adding the ASA training on top of that would give almost an even 300 + the sim time. A few more hours, but basically newly minted F.O.s with the same amount of ratings, experience, etc.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Now we have a high-timer jumping into the act when he's been here before - he knows better"

I really don't know better and I actually enjoy talking about what I believe in. People can look at both sides and look at the backgrounds of those making the arguments and decide for themselves. I call them as I see them but I see them from a different time and a different place. It's old school, no doubt. I had 2000 total, an ATP, and 50 multi before I had a shot at a 135 freight job in a light twin. Then, I had 2500 total and 500 multi before I had a shot at a commuter. I wouldn't change that seasoning process for anything as it produces a MUCH better end result than an ab inito program.

Yeah. The old days are gone and things are different now. Less than 300 hours and you too can be an airline pilot. No need to waste your time with years of instructing or flying freight. Get that seniority number, that's all that matters.

Sorry, I just don't like the way things are turning out in our brave new world.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't change that seasoning process for anything as it produces a MUCH better end result than an ab inito program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't feel that all is lost - I'm actually seriously considering the freight dawg ride!!

 

[kellwolf]

Hate to say this to ya (since you seem so into it), but an interview does not mean you'll be hired.

So, who out there is actually HIRING 300 hour pilots? Even Colgan is more or less keeping it around the 500 mark.

 

[Check_Six]

[ QUOTE ]
Hate to say this to ya (since you seem so into it), but an interview does not mean you'll be hired.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I know...and definately agree with you. I've read a bunch of gouges and the interview process seems pretty selective at most airlines. The reason I finally gave FSA a call was because I am still below the 600TT minimum that most regionals are accepting, and I just had a few friends that finished up CIME and got C.O.E.s through the direct track process. Apparenly the interview tested AIM, basic 121, and current aircraft systems knowledge. After that it was up to them to prove flight proficiency by completeing the LOFT and sim training culminating in passage of a company checkride.

I must admit though, that there were a few guys when I was doing my CFII training that either didn't pass the ASA interview...or made it through the interview, got the C.O.E., and did the training, but couldn't keep up with the sim and failed the checkride. I suppose that's the risk you take (although I think they may have gotten another shot at the ride...can't say for sure).

To agree with you again, I imagine the recruiters have to think you're a pretty sharp cookie to let you past an interview without experience beyond CIME training. I think FSA was primarily using this program to market the guys that didn't want to be CFIs or spend time hour building to normal hiring mins.

Sidenote: I remember that the ASA program was pretty new back when I was there about 5 years ago. And, from what I remember, the normal hiring mins. back then were more like 1000-1200 hours (I might be wrong on that number...let me know!)

This link will explain things better than I can:
ASA Program Breakdown (from hour "0")

 

[Stone Cold]

Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

[ QUOTE ]
As far as working for a regional that is "taking" routes from it's mainline affiliate, would you stop flying for Delta if they started taking routes that were formerly flown by Northwest? They're codeshare partners, which is almost the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kell, far from the same thing. At least if they are codeshare partners, it is still a mainline running the route. It's not the 50/70 seat regional with a much lower pay crew taking it. Yes, I overspoke earlier with the "stealing" routes comment, but that is the gist of what is happening, but in more polite terms. When you have a mainline airline, and I am using mainline loosely on purpose, take your pick of the airlines with a regional affiliate, and the regional takes over more and more of the flying while the "major" mothballs more and more airplanes, while furloughing or retiring the pilot ranks, then the industry as a whole is going downhill.

[ QUOTE ]
The point was brought up earlier of regional pilots getting bent over by management due to the stack of resumes on the recruiters' desks. Let's not use FedEx since they're still doing well, let's use someone like United or Northwest. They're pilots continue to get the shaft as well, but, like the regionals, they aren't quitting over it either. I'm sure there's just as big a stack at those airlines from regional pilots wanting to move up as there are at the lower tiers. Same thing applies, it's just bigger equipment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think, and all of this is my personal opinion, of course, that if you have a regional pilot not quitting it's an entirely different thing than if the major airline pilot quit. Use US Air, for example: I believe their lowest-time person has somewhere around 15 years seniority. If the 15 year person quit and started all over, they're committing career suicide. To start all over at a regional, or some other airline, is a very, very difficult decision. Since very few airlines have been hiring, I don't think it is a viable option for many. That is the reason a lot of the senior airline people who could take early-outs (retirement), did. The others are just hoping for the best of a bad situation, or as Doug has stated, fighting for their livelyhoods now.

As far as United or NWA, I don't think they have any resumes, at least if the people have a clue of what's going on, since both are in bankruptcy court. SWA has thousands of resumes, along with Fed Ex, JetBlue, etc. Notice all the airlines with resumes waiting have no regionals.

I'm not saying all the regionals are dragging everybody down. There are some exceptions, but there is also a dive to the bottom with some. I am just tired of everybody on this site saying how great it is for all pilots to rush out and assist with this process by joining a regional at 400-500 hours and not having any bargaining chips.

 

[kellwolf]

So, let me try to get this straight: it's cool for the regional guys to quit and start over because they haven't come that far anyway, but the major guys would be committing career suicide. The way I see it, if this keeps up, the majors will be at regional pay in a few years or so anyway. Might as well take a stand. Plus, with 15 or so years of experience and turbine time, the major pilot is a lot more marketable for a corporate flight job than the regional guy.

I just don't think the threat of starting over should be an excuse to be whipsawed into a sub-standard contract. 'Course I tend to only have a passing relationship with reality as well.....

Back to the ASA and the 300 hour pilot thing..... I'm under the 600 hour TT as well, but if business keeps up the way it is right now, I'll be over 600/100 in about two or three months. Here's the problem I think a lot of CFIs fall into: they don't keep up with their OWN proficiency. It's one thing to teach someone to fly IFR, but it's another to actually take the controls yourself once in a while. I like to toss myself into the sim every month or so just to stay sharp. That way, if the interview call DOES come in, I'm confident I can pass it. If a lot of the interview is on FARs and current aircraft systems, as a CFI they BETTER know both of those already. Just because someone is teaching others to fly doesn't mean they shouldn't keep learning themselves.

 

[MikeD]

The way I see it, if this keeps up, the majors will be at regional pay in a few years or so anyway. Might as well take a stand. .

.

IMO, it's headed that way already. I'm sure mainline CEOs are watching what Jon Ornstein is getting away with, and taking notes.

 

[derg]

Oh geez, the average professional pilot (whose clued in of course) sees Orenstein as the antichrist, but every airline CEO thinks he's the second coming because, if you ready Bogberto's posts, he's mastered the 'pilot mentality' to a tee.

Besides, he rides a Harley. The local media in PHX thinks he's the next Richard Branson.

"Keeping your air fares low on a Harley, tonight with Heidi Fogelsong..."

 

[MikeD]

[I'm not saying all the regionals are dragging everybody down. There are some exceptions, but there is also a dive to the bottom with some. I am just tired of everybody on this site saying how great it is for all pilots to rush out and assist with this process by joining a regional at 400-500 hours and not having any bargaining chips.

I think I heard it put best today: The pilots of today with SJS, who are falling all over each other for the $19K/year regional job, in hopes of moving up the ladder to the greener pastures of a mainline job, are unknowingly forever poisoning the waters of that mainline job. By the time they get there, it'll be no different than where they've already been at. They won't go up to it, it'll come down to them.

 

[tonyw]

Someone's got to explain to me why the media's making a guy who's been involved in securities fraud into a hero. Someone. Please. Because it makes no sense.

And why, oh why, doesn't ALPA start using that against him? Every time he says something stupid, they ought to say, well, what do you expect from a guy who's been involved in securities fraud?

It's not slander if it's true!

 

[MikeD]

Someone's got to explain to me why the media's making a guy who's been involved in securities fraud into a hero. Someone. Please. Because it makes no sense.

And why, oh why, doesn't ALPA start using that against him? Every time he says something stupid, they ought to say, well, what do you expect from a guy who's been involved in securities fraud?

It's not slander if it's true!

Good question. IMO, JO isn't going anywhere anytime soon. He's pretty powerful, has the carrot a ton of newbie SJS pilots want, and has a killer business model....that of, let the desire for SJS keep any and all bargaining power down.

He maybe an •; but he's a savvy •.....gotta give him that.

 

[tonyw]

He's smart, no question about that. But I look at it like this.

Bad management is like a bully. They'll kick your butt until you say, fine. I'm going to pop you in the mouth next time you try. And then they say, ouch, damn, that hurt, I'll find someone else to pick on.

I think that as people realize, hey, I'm not going to be going to mega-major pulling $100K a year after two years of being dumped on at this regional, their attitudes will change. Once they see it as not just a stepping stone, but a place they're going to be a while, they'll change their tunes.

Or so I hope.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I hate that term "SJS."

Here is something I posted on another board:

So much poorly aimed frustration about the current situation at the airlines. Why must we continue to be at each others throats? It's not the new hires right now at the regionals. It's partly everyones fault here for this trend. Particularly, management. They are running these companies into the ground, setting ticket prices at terribly low rates with fuel prices skyrocketing through the roof. We are all--even the low-paid regional folks--funding these airlines in bankrupcy with paycuts and reduced benefits.

All this talk of SJS: Give me a break! The pilots at the majors are folding like a house of cards, giving up pensions, pay, benefits, left and right. Why? Do they have SJS too, hoping to keep their jobs in this downturn? Why don't they just quit? It's because we all have so much invested in this career, we are hoping that short-term downs will turn around to long-term ups. Problem is, these short-term downs are stretching out longer and longer than expected.

The fact is, there have only been so many good paying jobs in aviation. Few and far between. There have always been more crap-paying jobs at the supplemental carriers, charters, corporate outfits, and smaller airlines. Yeah, there are your big legacies, and your Fortune 100 companies, but other than that, there haven't been many good-paying jobs. Problem is, all these me-me-me, now-now-now Generation Xers want these good paying jobs they were promised in the Flying Magazine ads for the past 10 years RIGHT NOW. We didn't have a strong sense of reality about life as a pilot, because the powers that be spoonfed us massive amounts of bullshoot for years. So now we are "stuck" at the regionals, and are scapegoats.

Why are we scapegoats? Because we are flying routes that used to be mainline with regional aircraft. Whose fault is that? 1: Management. They set what aircraft fly what routes. 2: The pilots at the majors, trying to scope out the RJs instead of assimilating them into their companies. 3: The regional pilots, for continuing to think it's OK to fly these routes for BS pay... even taking concessions to continue doing so! We're also an easy target because of our position in the industry: The new guys. The majors are fortunate that they only must compete with each other. The regionals not only must compete in the market for their current brand, but they also must fight for feed. So regional management can pit pilot groups against one another. We can see it here, day after day. So much back and forth "my airline is better than yours" bullshoot. We should be sticking together, but management has created the perfect inter-company rift.

Whatever it is, times are changing. Pilots now are moving from skilled stick-and-rudder operators with calm nerves and a relaxed demenor to Gen X Nintendo-type computer operators, always on edge and hyped up on Starbucks. It's easy to get on a computer now and complain about the industry, then take terms like "SJS" and "PFT" and throw them around like insults on the line to feel tough. If we'd just shut up for a minute, and start working together, then ALPA might be somewhat effective. It sure won't be effective--and you all will keep complaining about our union--without unity between the pilot groups. Especially at the regionals. It dumbfounds me to see people on here HAPPY at the demise of another airline. It's only a short time before you are next...

Sorry that you weren't at a major in three or four years after starting at a regional by 21. Sorry you aren't making $100,000 yet, by age 26. Guess what: That's how it was always going to work. You weren't going to get to UPS or FedEx or SWA by 26! You weren't guaranteed that quick EMB-170 upgrade. I've even fallen victim to the "woe is me" attitude every so often, wondering how long I'll be "stuck" at the regionals. You know what? I don't care. Just keep increasing pay and benefits, and start working to ensure some job security. We won't get either of those things fighting each other like this. So all you'll have is crappy pay, no benefits, and ever-decreasing job security while trying to fight for those major airline jobs that don't exist.

Seriously, how many of you really still believe that when you get 1000 PIC that SWA, FedEx, and JetBlue will be knocking at your door? Is that why you are taking these paycuts and only making $55,000 as an RJ Captain? So you can get to a major faster than your brethren at such-and-such other regional? Give me a break. Reality check: You'll be here for a while.