How low can the mins go?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested to hear it too, but not from a close-minded, biased pilot. Those are the same type of guys that look at me funny when I walk into an FBO the first time, they're all like 'Boy, what are you doing here'

[/ QUOTE ]
Sprint,
Your post reflect the most closed minded and naive of any of the posters on this board. You want information, but when its not what you want to here you call us "closed mided."

Your opinions are baseless and speculative. As opposed to those you are criticizing, who are speaking from many years experience as professional aviators.

You dismiss opinions of established members of the industry and this board because we don't share your narrow view of the world.

Someone asked a question and we answered. If you don't like the answers you see, too bad. You are in for a rude awakening if you ever get on the line somewhere. Which is doubtful if you display such contempt in an interview.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the other problem I see.

Personally, I believe that regional pilots do pretty much the same job as a domestic mainline pilot. Subtle differences are minor.......maybe leg lengths, maybe destinations, and of course equipment flown. However, for all the similiarities between the two jobs, the pay disparity is pretty darn large. Why is that (rhetorically speaking)? Why is it seemingly so much easier to shaft a regional pilot than a mainline one? I believe it's because of the cutthroat nature of the regional business. As JO said, with so many resumes of those waiting to work for beans, why should I give anything to those already here? So, no matter how much the regional pilot groups try to take a stand and work for better and very much deserved pay and QOL, they'll constantly be getting their legs cut out from under them, due to the very fact that there's always someone out there (many, really) willing to work the job for less. And the absolute worst part of it, IMHO, are some I've seen that come on this very forum, and actually defend the extremely low pay of regionals as "it's always been that way", or "everyone starts out low". The former doesn't cut it and is an excuse to do nothing about a problem, IMO. The latter is a total cop out......sure, initial pay is low, but does that mean it should be unliveable? Some of the low pay, even for the first few years at some places, is abhorrent. To me, that mindset is what gets many of the hightimers to look at some of the regionals and their pilots as whoring themselves out to management. It's felt that this method of thinking, and of simply bending over and taking it because "it's always been that way", will work it's way into a trickle-up theory......with mainline CEOs asking the same questions that JO does. Questions like "my mainline guys do the same thing as these regional guys, but with only about 40 more seats. Why should I pay my guys any more than these guys?", might start getting asked, if they're not being asked already. And soon, there will be no difference between mainline and regional flying, because all flying will eventually be brought down to the "regional standard", as it'll likely become known as.

This is where I think many of the high timers are coming. They might not have a dog in the fight now, but the results of the fight being fought now, will eventually affect them later.

Question is, what can be done about the problems at regionals? Is it a battle that can be fought and won, or is it a losing battle altogether? I personally think regional start pay should be livelable and reasonable.....maybe say, $50K starting for an FO. But that's just me. So long as it's accepted by pilots that they're only worth $19K per year, management will continue to be happy to oblige them and pay them no more than beans.

Because there's always 50 more waiting to do your job for less.......

And that's more of where I think some of the people here are coming from.

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep mentioning regionals, its not just regionals, Do you think if Fedex was to take a 35% paycut there still wouldnt be stacks of resumes there?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Your post reflect the most closed minded and naive of any of the posters on this board. You want information, but when its not what you want to here you call us "closed mided."

[/ QUOTE ]

Great ASSumption. Being open-minded doesn't mean you have to agree. When you have already developed an opinion before you hear the other side, ie most party-addicted polticians, that is being close-minded. Oh yeah, me and my instructor disagree on lots of things, but he hears me out then makes a logical decision based on all the information. Sometime I do change my mind, do don't get me twisted with that other close-minded behavior.

[ QUOTE ]
Your opinions are baseless and speculative. As opposed to those you are criticizing, who are speaking from many years experience as professional aviators.

You dismiss opinions of established members of the industry and this board because we don't share your narrow view of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

More ASSumptions

[ QUOTE ]
Someone asked a question and we answered. If you don't like the answers you see, too bad. You are in for a rude awakening if you ever get on the line somewhere. Which is doubtful if you display such contempt in an interview.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the post above regarding your first ASSumption. Whenever someone disagrees and stands up for what they say, the 'Someone asked a question and we answered. If you don't like the answers you see, too bad.' statement quickly follows.

If you say something very voteworthy I'm the first with a
yeahthat.gif
wether I agree or disagree. That is proven in previous posts and with those that know me. Don't mistake me with being vocal if I'm behind something for being close-minded. If a post doesn't hold water with me, I'mma say it. Something may be said/proved for me to go, hmmm, maybe he's right.
 
[ QUOTE ]

You keep mentioning regionals, its not just regionals, Do you think if Fedex was to take a 35% paycut there still wouldnt be stacks of resumes there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Different comparison. Fedex isn't dropping the bar on hiring mins, because they don't need to. Fedex isn't a "stepping stone", nor is it looked at as one. Many pilots as well as CEOs/management, see regionals as just that. So there's no incentive for pilots to do anything about it, nor is there incentive for management to do anything either. So, the bar keeps getting lowered and lowered. Until some big changes come around, this "regional mentality" will slowly trickle-up in the industry......and might even establish a new industry standard: a Z scale.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Great ASSumption.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that is maturity and open-mindness right there ...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You keep mentioning regionals, its not just regionals, Do you think if Fedex was to take a 35% paycut there still wouldnt be stacks of resumes there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Different comparison. Fedex isn't dropping the bar on hiring mins, because they don't need to. Fedex isn't a "stepping stone", nor is it looked at as one. Many pilots as well as CEOs/management, see regionals as just that. So there's no incentive for pilots to do anything about it, nor is there incentive for management to do anything either. So, the bar keeps getting lowered and lowered. Until some big changes come around, this "regional mentality" will slowly trickle-up in the industry......and might even establish a new industry standard: a Z scale.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're talking about lower mins, and now we're talking about lower the bar. Regionals pay rates arent good, ill give ya that. But no regionals, to my knowledge has done anything but go up in its pay rates in the past year or so. So althought in theory lowering mins lowers pay, but that would be more longterm, and isnt exactly true at the moment.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the other problem I see.

Personally, I believe that regional pilots do pretty much the same job as a domestic mainline pilot. Subtle differences are minor.......maybe leg lengths, maybe destinations, and of course equipment flown. However, for all the similiarities between the two jobs, the pay disparity is pretty darn large. Why is that (rhetorically speaking)? Why is it seemingly so much easier to shaft a regional pilot than a mainline one?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is part of the Walmartization of this country. Focus on low prices and not on service. Build a business around a formula, give people as little as you can for the money, keep the costs low and keep paying big bonuses to upper management.

The regional pilots aren't getting screwed - the mainline pilots are dinosaurs.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the other problem I see.

Personally, I believe that regional pilots do pretty much the same job as a domestic mainline pilot. Subtle differences are minor.......maybe leg lengths, maybe destinations, and of course equipment flown. However, for all the similiarities between the two jobs, the pay disparity is pretty darn large. Why is that (rhetorically speaking)? Why is it seemingly so much easier to shaft a regional pilot than a mainline one?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is part of the Walmartization of this country. Focus on low prices and not on service. Build a business around a formula, give people as little as you can for the money, keep the costs low and keep paying big bonuses to upper management.

The regional pilots aren't getting screwed - the mainline pilots are dinosaurs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You contradict yourself.
 
[ QUOTE ]

We're talking about lower mins, and now we're talking about lower the bar. Regionals pay rates arent good, ill give ya that. But no regionals, to my knowledge has done anything but go up in its pay rates in the past year or so. So althought in theory lowering mins lowers pay, but that would be more longterm, and isnt exactly true at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, the regionals have gone up in payrates. But going up from exceptionally-less-than- nothing, to now less-than-nothing; isn't an improvement. And is, IMHO, a slap in the face to all the regional pilots, whom I believe are worth far more than that. Regional pilots are being so gouged by management it's pitiful. Especially for what they do and the responsibility they hold. Like I said, a starting salary of the late $40Ks would be somewhat fair (higher rate if I could). Problem is, management isn't only to blame for this. They certainly share a good part of the blame, though.
 
The Battle at the Regionals

I think it's going to start getting fought.

Here's my thinking, which I'm just going to throw out there. Feel free to rip it apart, I'm all for starting discussions.

I think a lot of people were willing to put up with crap at the regionals back in the glory days where you would put up with that for a couple of years, and then mega-major would hire you due to so much growth in the industry. A lot of people looked at it like, well, I gotta put up with crap for a couple of years and then I'll be making good money.

Then the bad times came. And now there are thousands of people on the street who are going to get called back first for a much reduced mega-major paycheck.

I have a feeling that folks at the regionals are going to say, well, damn it, if I'm stuck here for five, ten, 20 years, I'm not going to put up with this.

I will tell you this is a concern of some execs at some regionals (and no, I am not going to name them) and they are thinking of ways to try to make things better for their employees.
 
Re: The Battle at the Regionals

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's going to start getting fought.

Here's my thinking, which I'm just going to throw out there. Feel free to rip it apart, I'm all for starting discussions.

I think a lot of people were willing to put up with crap at the regionals back in the glory days where you would put up with that for a couple of years, and then mega-major would hire you due to so much growth in the industry. A lot of people looked at it like, well, I gotta put up with crap for a couple of years and then I'll be making good money.

Then the bad times came. And now there are thousands of people on the street who are going to get called back first for a much reduced mega-major paycheck.

I have a feeling that folks at the regionals are going to say, well, damn it, if I'm stuck here for five, ten, 20 years, I'm not going to put up with this.

I will tell you this is a concern of some execs at some regionals (and no, I am not going to name them) and they are thinking of ways to try to make things better for their employees.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may very well be right. And I personally hope you are right. I've always been of the opinion that the regionals have the potential to be a place where one can do a career, and have a comfortable pay and QOL. In order to do this, pilots are going to have to get serious about things. Those with SJS, who now at the regionals have SMJS (shiny mainline jet syndrome), should do what they can for where they are currently. Help out their fellow pilot. It's certainly nothing that would happen overnight, but with the right motivation, the right teamwork, the ability to really stand up to management. Then places like, for example, Mesa could really become a decent place to work. But in order to change people like JOs mind, there has not be confirmation of his way of thinking. He thinks pilots aren't worth much. They must not be, he reckons, since they pile all over themselves to fly his jets for pennies and lousy QOL. That kind of crap needs to be changed, if there's going to be any hope of someone like JO taking the pilot group seriously, and having any respect for them. He has no respect for the pilot group, because his thoughts about them consistently and repeatedly get reconfirmed.
 
Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with ya looking4, but people have to gain that experience somewhere. Sooner or later people have to make a jump from CFI (jumper pilot, 135, ec.) to that next big thing and everyone will be behind the ball at that point. Experience will help that person catch up more quickly but somewhere everyone has to get their feet wet.

That doesn't mean I think 300 hour pilots (with, what, 100 or so PIC in piston singles or twins) should be getting their feet wet in a jet (for the most part, there are, obviously, exceptions). But I don't blame them for taking the jobs. No one here can say with a straight face they themselves wouldn't have jumped at the chance if it were offered to them at that point in their carrer. If you say you can you are lying, plain and simple. That doesnt mean you can't change your opinion to the ones you/we hold now but we were/are all young and stupid at some point in our lives. Want someone to blame ... try blaming the pilot factories for preying on unsuspecting, easily impressionable people like CLR4ILS.
grin.gif


However, I want no one to think that I think it's low time (sub 1,000-ish) pilots that are dragging the industry down. It's inept, impotent management but like I posted previously all it takes is to get pilots arguing and we seem more than happy to destroy ourselves while management looks on with glee.

[/ QUOTE ]

I beg to differ with you. There are some of us who refuse to go regional because we think it's bringing the industry down. I would rather fly a beat up ole Baron, etc, than a shiny new jet for peanuts. Do not generalize and don't say it's the only option.

As far as all the other bickering, if you're low time, listen to what the "salty dawgs" have to say. They've been there, done that. If you're not even flying the line anywhere, please don't think your tech school taught you everything about this industry and now you can teach everybody how life works. Just listen for a change. To quote an old prophet: "it is better to be an idiot and keep your mouth shut, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". I think that's how it went.

Anyways, good luck to everybody out there. Hopefully one of these years you regional guys will get what you should be earning. I realize some are and if you stick it out, you can make okay money, I'm just talking about the beginning.

TX
 
Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

[ QUOTE ]
I beg to differ with you. There are some of us who refuse to go regional because we think it's bringing the industry down. I would rather fly a beat up ole Baron, etc, than a shiny new jet for peanuts. Do not generalize and don't say it's the only option.


[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt you make a decent salary flying a beat up 'ole Baron around and you took the job so my point is still valid. But I do see some of your point, hell I'm not going to a "traditional" regional either but the pay still sucks and I took the job so ...
 
Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

I have no idea what pilots at airnet make, but if you are only looking at a pay comparison of the first 2 years as a regional thats pretty short sighted. I have nothing against airnet, think they are a good 135 operator and looked at going there myself.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

We're talking about lower mins, and now we're talking about lower the bar. Regionals pay rates arent good, ill give ya that. But no regionals, to my knowledge has done anything but go up in its pay rates in the past year or so. So althought in theory lowering mins lowers pay, but that would be more longterm, and isnt exactly true at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, the regionals have gone up in payrates. But going up from exceptionally-less-than- nothing, to now less-than-nothing; isn't an improvement. And is, IMHO, a slap in the face to all the regional pilots, whom I believe are worth far more than that. Regional pilots are being so gouged by management it's pitiful. Especially for what they do and the responsibility they hold. Like I said, a starting salary of the late $40Ks would be somewhat fair (higher rate if I could). Problem is, management isn't only to blame for this. They certainly share a good part of the blame, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you were arguing that now that mins have gone down payrates have to. Which isnt the case. At some places the mins have gone up and down over the years and at some places they havent.
 
Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

I'll make around 30K this year, upgrade into the jets (lear 35) currently 10-12 months, where average pay is about $40K. The problem with this company is if you want to stick it out long-term, the pay doesn't keep going up like it should. We're working on that.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I thought you were arguing that now that mins have gone down payrates have to. Which isnt the case. At some places the mins have gone up and down over the years and at some places they havent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, no no. I'm on the side of regional pilots, and wish more for them. Since like I wrote, I think they have the same responsibility and overall job as the mainline, with differences such as (in some cases) smaller equipment flown. But to me, the pay disparity between mainline and regional is too wide to be accurate, or right, or realistic. I just think that the pilots could do better for themselves, but much of why they aren't getting the respect they deserve, as well as good pay and QOL, lies in their own backyard....as well as with indifferent management. SJS, stepping stone mentality, etc, are all contributors to this, IMHO.
 
Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

I just took a gander at your website, and you would have to be a 20 year Jet captain to make what you would as a 3rd year RJ CA. So as you can see we are also "working on it".
 
Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

Sorry, what regional do you work for??? And what web site did you use for that comparison??? From what I have seen, our 5-10 year captains compare to the 5 year regional captains...and how many regionals out there will actually have you as a captain in that time???

Also, we fly smaller equipment, and don't babysit, since all upgrades are 2000+TT, since we start out as a prop PIC in the system. We also have a charter side which makes more since they actually have pax on board.

Just curious, edumicate me Kingairer...

edited for additional info.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top