How low can the mins go?
- Thread starter fender_jag
- Start date
Check_Six
Well-Known Member
Hey Grassroots!
I haven't been following your conversation with CLR4ILS much until the past few posts.
I think it s sux ux that your experience there was poor. I suppose as you stated...results may vary (wish they were always good). It is interesting to hear about a different perspective of going through FSI, though. The difference between CLR4ILS and me is that I didn't even approach the campus with a Gleim manual anywhere on my person, including the coffee shop. As was previously stated, the Dir. of Academics, at the time Al St.George, was ADAMANTLY against them. I pesonally like the big red books for I quick overview, but that was his soapbox and I respect that. I think his concern was students memorizing the material rather than studying.
I heard that after St. George left, Mr. Lawler took over as the Dir. of Academics, so I can't vouch for the current standards and classroom procedures. I liked the groundschools, but perhaps that's because if things got repetitive I would bust out my texts and study some other things on which I peronally needed at little attention. I think that helped. Overall I liked the FSI experience, but was fortunate to have VERY GOOD instructors (not in regards to where they worked, but rather that they were very cool guys that would have been great instructors anywhere). That helped alot too.
Please view this post as very neutral...I'm not trying using this to push FSA. Just commenting that its interesting how policies can change over the years.
On a personal note, I've known CLR4ILS for a few years and he's a good guy (and importantly in my book a good pilot). His passion for his opinions can be great, but if you need someone to fly with you can expect professionalism, comraderie, and solid flying skills. Not braggin' for him, just stating my opinion from personal knowledge. All of us have our issues on which we feel we cannot budge. The years will bring us all wisdom (I hope), and I'm sure maybe even a little flexibility
Temet Nosche, (yes...from the Matrix
)
Check_Six
I haven't been following your conversation with CLR4ILS much until the past few posts.
I think it s sux ux that your experience there was poor. I suppose as you stated...results may vary (wish they were always good). It is interesting to hear about a different perspective of going through FSI, though. The difference between CLR4ILS and me is that I didn't even approach the campus with a Gleim manual anywhere on my person, including the coffee shop. As was previously stated, the Dir. of Academics, at the time Al St.George, was ADAMANTLY against them. I pesonally like the big red books for I quick overview, but that was his soapbox and I respect that. I think his concern was students memorizing the material rather than studying.
I heard that after St. George left, Mr. Lawler took over as the Dir. of Academics, so I can't vouch for the current standards and classroom procedures. I liked the groundschools, but perhaps that's because if things got repetitive I would bust out my texts and study some other things on which I peronally needed at little attention. I think that helped. Overall I liked the FSI experience, but was fortunate to have VERY GOOD instructors (not in regards to where they worked, but rather that they were very cool guys that would have been great instructors anywhere). That helped alot too.
Please view this post as very neutral...I'm not trying using this to push FSA. Just commenting that its interesting how policies can change over the years.
On a personal note, I've known CLR4ILS for a few years and he's a good guy (and importantly in my book a good pilot). His passion for his opinions can be great, but if you need someone to fly with you can expect professionalism, comraderie, and solid flying skills. Not braggin' for him, just stating my opinion from personal knowledge. All of us have our issues on which we feel we cannot budge. The years will bring us all wisdom (I hope), and I'm sure maybe even a little flexibility
Temet Nosche, (yes...from the Matrix
Check_Six
CLR4ILS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
But you fail to think that other's views could be right. Be careful, because this is what will limit you in life if you don't change your ways.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not true... I respect the opinions of everyone on this board. I simply have problems with schools, big or small, FBO or academy, giving poor instruction and crushing a student financially and mentally.
Like I said, I have been on both sides of training and I do push FSA because they impressed the hell out of me with their customer service, quality in training, and professionalism.
I spent approx. $45,000 through MEI and I feel it was worth every penny. I just wish you could have had the same experience some of had pre 9/11. No excuses.....you should have period.
As for limiting me in life.... I do get a little bent with people I feel have their head up their a$$ when it comes to what "we" the customer should recieve with respect to very expensive aviation training. Outside of that, I am pretty mellow. Even though I am somewhat young, I guess I am "old school" when it comes to customer service and quality. You just don't see it much anymore.
I have been burnt at a shady flight school and I will try to help new students so they do not.
I know that not ALL small FBO style schools are bad. Unfortunatley, the 10 or so I have delt with were. I have considered starting a small school (no FBO) here in Scottsdale, AZ and to offer the best customer service combined with the most thorough flight training. Complete with a great SOP, Syllabus, Checklists, and standz department. The problem is the profit VS the capital to start. With a few partners and a good cheif pilot it could work.
Anyway....Peace
ILS
But you fail to think that other's views could be right. Be careful, because this is what will limit you in life if you don't change your ways.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not true... I respect the opinions of everyone on this board. I simply have problems with schools, big or small, FBO or academy, giving poor instruction and crushing a student financially and mentally.
Like I said, I have been on both sides of training and I do push FSA because they impressed the hell out of me with their customer service, quality in training, and professionalism.
I spent approx. $45,000 through MEI and I feel it was worth every penny. I just wish you could have had the same experience some of had pre 9/11. No excuses.....you should have period.
As for limiting me in life.... I do get a little bent with people I feel have their head up their a$$ when it comes to what "we" the customer should recieve with respect to very expensive aviation training. Outside of that, I am pretty mellow. Even though I am somewhat young, I guess I am "old school" when it comes to customer service and quality. You just don't see it much anymore.
I have been burnt at a shady flight school and I will try to help new students so they do not.
I know that not ALL small FBO style schools are bad. Unfortunatley, the 10 or so I have delt with were. I have considered starting a small school (no FBO) here in Scottsdale, AZ and to offer the best customer service combined with the most thorough flight training. Complete with a great SOP, Syllabus, Checklists, and standz department. The problem is the profit VS the capital to start. With a few partners and a good cheif pilot it could work.
Anyway....Peace
ILS
yo guys.. knock it off already... let's continue with the actual topic of conversation and take the FBO/academy/whatever conversation to a new thread eh?!
master of the house is going to be home in a few hours and after the week he's had, he's not going to want to cleanup a food fight in the living room!
here's the beginning post of the thread, repeated
[ QUOTE ]
ATP and American Eagle have an alliance which allows Eagle to, "...at its discretion, reduce the total time to not less than 400 hours with a minimum of 200 ME PIC".
http://www.atpflightschool.com/airline_training_programs/airline_alliances/american_eagle_alliance.html
When I first read that, I was amazed. A few years ago, no one would look at you without an ATP and 300-400 multi. The times, they are a changin'!
[/ QUOTE ] luckily, the new software will fix this problem of not being able to see the first post...
master of the house is going to be home in a few hours and after the week he's had, he's not going to want to cleanup a food fight in the living room!
here's the beginning post of the thread, repeated
[ QUOTE ]
ATP and American Eagle have an alliance which allows Eagle to, "...at its discretion, reduce the total time to not less than 400 hours with a minimum of 200 ME PIC".
http://www.atpflightschool.com/airline_training_programs/airline_alliances/american_eagle_alliance.html
When I first read that, I was amazed. A few years ago, no one would look at you without an ATP and 300-400 multi. The times, they are a changin'!
[/ QUOTE ] luckily, the new software will fix this problem of not being able to see the first post...
grassrootsflying
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Grassroots!
I haven't been following your conversation with CLR4ILS much until the past few posts.
I think it s sux ux that your experience there was poor. I suppose as you stated...results may vary (wish they were always good). It is interesting to hear about a different perspective of going through FSI, though. The difference between CLR4ILS and me is that I didn't even approach the campus with a Gleim manual anywhere on my person, including the coffee shop. As was previously stated, the Dir. of Academics, at the time Al St.George, was ADAMANTLY against them. I pesonally like the big red books for I quick overview, but that was his soapbox and I respect that. I think his concern was students memorizing the material rather than studying.
I heard that after St. George left, Mr. Lawler took over as the Dir. of Academics, so I can't vouch for the current standards and classroom procedures. I liked the groundschools, but perhaps that's because if things got repetitive I would bust out my texts and study some other things on which I peronally needed at little attention. I think that helped. Overall I liked the FSI experience, but was fortunate to have VERY GOOD instructors (not in regards to where they worked, but rather that they were very cool guys that would have been great instructors anywhere). That helped alot too.
Please view this post as very neutral...I'm not trying using this to push FSA. Just commenting that its interesting how policies can change over the years.
On a personal note, I've known CLR4ILS for a few years and he's a good guy (and importantly in my book a good pilot). His passion for his opinions can be great, but if you need someone to fly with you can expect professionalism, comraderie, and solid flying skills. Not braggin' for him, just stating my opinion from personal knowledge. All of us have our issues on which we feel we cannot budge. The years will bring us all wisdom (I hope), and I'm sure maybe even a little flexibility
Temet Nosche, (yes...from the Matrix
)
Check_Six
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, I wasn't going to name anybody, but yes, Mr, L was part of my problem. It's complicated, but I feel that he set an attitude that I think a lot of other people seemed to carry. People look to the boss to set the tone. I made some good friends and met some good people there, but I regretted going there. As for if whoever is a good guy or not, we will never meet. I have flown with plenty of guys who think that they were solid, until I mention that we are in a 40degree bank in IFR. But good luck in whatever you may end up in.
Hey Grassroots!
I haven't been following your conversation with CLR4ILS much until the past few posts.
I think it s sux ux that your experience there was poor. I suppose as you stated...results may vary (wish they were always good). It is interesting to hear about a different perspective of going through FSI, though. The difference between CLR4ILS and me is that I didn't even approach the campus with a Gleim manual anywhere on my person, including the coffee shop. As was previously stated, the Dir. of Academics, at the time Al St.George, was ADAMANTLY against them. I pesonally like the big red books for I quick overview, but that was his soapbox and I respect that. I think his concern was students memorizing the material rather than studying.
I heard that after St. George left, Mr. Lawler took over as the Dir. of Academics, so I can't vouch for the current standards and classroom procedures. I liked the groundschools, but perhaps that's because if things got repetitive I would bust out my texts and study some other things on which I peronally needed at little attention. I think that helped. Overall I liked the FSI experience, but was fortunate to have VERY GOOD instructors (not in regards to where they worked, but rather that they were very cool guys that would have been great instructors anywhere). That helped alot too.
Please view this post as very neutral...I'm not trying using this to push FSA. Just commenting that its interesting how policies can change over the years.
On a personal note, I've known CLR4ILS for a few years and he's a good guy (and importantly in my book a good pilot). His passion for his opinions can be great, but if you need someone to fly with you can expect professionalism, comraderie, and solid flying skills. Not braggin' for him, just stating my opinion from personal knowledge. All of us have our issues on which we feel we cannot budge. The years will bring us all wisdom (I hope), and I'm sure maybe even a little flexibility
Temet Nosche, (yes...from the Matrix
Check_Six
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, I wasn't going to name anybody, but yes, Mr, L was part of my problem. It's complicated, but I feel that he set an attitude that I think a lot of other people seemed to carry. People look to the boss to set the tone. I made some good friends and met some good people there, but I regretted going there. As for if whoever is a good guy or not, we will never meet. I have flown with plenty of guys who think that they were solid, until I mention that we are in a 40degree bank in IFR. But good luck in whatever you may end up in.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
master of the house is going to be home in a few hours . . .
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't really let him think that, do ya?
master of the house is going to be home in a few hours . . .
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't really let him think that, do ya?
Check_Six
Well-Known Member
Sorry if this is something already answered elsewhere, but in the spirit of getting back to the low mins conversation...
I've met EU airline contract trainees who were hired at hour "0". My understanding is that they were interviewed, given the equivalent of a C.O.E., sent here to the good 'ole USA, got a CIME (or something similar), and then went back for Airbus indoc. Needless to say I was a little jealous at the time.
Here's are the questions:
1. Did they have to pay for this training?
2. Have these airlines suffered due to this practice?
3. Will U.S. airlines ever resort to this as a $ saving tactic? (Going back to experience = amount of pay)
I'm not advocating that I think its a great idea, I'm just curious how its working out arcoss the pond.
I've met EU airline contract trainees who were hired at hour "0". My understanding is that they were interviewed, given the equivalent of a C.O.E., sent here to the good 'ole USA, got a CIME (or something similar), and then went back for Airbus indoc. Needless to say I was a little jealous at the time.
Here's are the questions:
1. Did they have to pay for this training?
2. Have these airlines suffered due to this practice?
3. Will U.S. airlines ever resort to this as a $ saving tactic? (Going back to experience = amount of pay)
I'm not advocating that I think its a great idea, I'm just curious how its working out arcoss the pond.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"It is also very clear that you feel low time regional new-hires are the reasoning behind the current industry slide."
Not sure where you got that reference me. I do believe that 400 hour jet F/O's who have gone through a direct hire program with type specific training don't have many options. As such, management can use them to bring down the expectations of the whole pilot group. Not say it's happened yet, but things like this could be in the future.
I think the current industry slide is caused by two things. Airlines not passing on the cost of doing business to the consumer and, more recently, the high cost of jet A.
Not sure where you got that reference me. I do believe that 400 hour jet F/O's who have gone through a direct hire program with type specific training don't have many options. As such, management can use them to bring down the expectations of the whole pilot group. Not say it's happened yet, but things like this could be in the future.
I think the current industry slide is caused by two things. Airlines not passing on the cost of doing business to the consumer and, more recently, the high cost of jet A.
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
I know that not ALL small FBO style schools are bad. Unfortunatley, the 10 or so I have delt with were. I have considered starting a small school (no FBO) here in Scottsdale, AZ and to offer the best customer service combined with the most thorough flight training. Complete with a great SOP, Syllabus, Checklists, and standz department. The problem is the profit VS the capital to start. With a few partners and a good cheif pilot it could work.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just an honest question ... why would anyone choose your school over FSA when even you yourself say FSA is close to the be all end all of flight training?
And, just as a friendly FYI from an instructor who has trained locally here in PHX and instructed over a year in the Valley ... the market is pretty saturated.
If you're gonna do it just make sure you're either WAY cheaper (average price in the valley for a '70s vintage 172 is above $100/hr) or provide something the other schools don't like glass panel, new tech aircraft - which, of course, there already is a school that was based out of SDL and has since moved to FFZ. Also keep in mind SDL doesn't like anything that burns 100LL.
That is, of course, if you're willing to take advice from "Capt. Otter," ya know, a guy who's actually about to do what you'd "love to do."
Cheers.
I know that not ALL small FBO style schools are bad. Unfortunatley, the 10 or so I have delt with were. I have considered starting a small school (no FBO) here in Scottsdale, AZ and to offer the best customer service combined with the most thorough flight training. Complete with a great SOP, Syllabus, Checklists, and standz department. The problem is the profit VS the capital to start. With a few partners and a good cheif pilot it could work.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just an honest question ... why would anyone choose your school over FSA when even you yourself say FSA is close to the be all end all of flight training?
And, just as a friendly FYI from an instructor who has trained locally here in PHX and instructed over a year in the Valley ... the market is pretty saturated.
If you're gonna do it just make sure you're either WAY cheaper (average price in the valley for a '70s vintage 172 is above $100/hr) or provide something the other schools don't like glass panel, new tech aircraft - which, of course, there already is a school that was based out of SDL and has since moved to FFZ. Also keep in mind SDL doesn't like anything that burns 100LL.
That is, of course, if you're willing to take advice from "Capt. Otter," ya know, a guy who's actually about to do what you'd "love to do."
Cheers.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"At least DE727 came out and said something to the effect that he won't be convinced, so this convo is impossible and will be a never-ending issue unless he changes his mind"
The funniest thing about this is I don't even have a dawg in the fight. It's never going to be my problem as it's really only an issue at the regional level. I'm soooo glad I'll never be a regional Capt faced with babysitting some low time F/O who did the program. And no, I won't be changing my mind...
The funniest thing about this is I don't even have a dawg in the fight. It's never going to be my problem as it's really only an issue at the regional level. I'm soooo glad I'll never be a regional Capt faced with babysitting some low time F/O who did the program. And no, I won't be changing my mind...
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"I own my company and have my hands in alot of things that produce $$$ for me. As for a flying job.....I still fly part time"
ILS. Between your avtar, your defense of direct entry jet F/O's, and your statement that you weren't low time, I had you pegged as an ASA Capt. Now I see you only fly part time and are not an airline pilot. I was way off.
"I respect the opinions of everyone on this board."
Wow...coulda fooled me with your nearly unmatched level of sarcasm and the clear lack of respect you show in some of your posts. If I went to FSA, or was thinking of it, I'd hardly look at this thread and come away with a positive image. Personally, I think you are doing more damage than good to your beloved academy. The FSA guy who recently PM'ed me said the same.
I think FSA is a good school for those that want that type of environment but it's hardly going to make your resume stand out of the pack. Experience, hours, and ratings is what does that....and that's how it should be.
ILS. Between your avtar, your defense of direct entry jet F/O's, and your statement that you weren't low time, I had you pegged as an ASA Capt. Now I see you only fly part time and are not an airline pilot. I was way off.
"I respect the opinions of everyone on this board."
Wow...coulda fooled me with your nearly unmatched level of sarcasm and the clear lack of respect you show in some of your posts. If I went to FSA, or was thinking of it, I'd hardly look at this thread and come away with a positive image. Personally, I think you are doing more damage than good to your beloved academy. The FSA guy who recently PM'ed me said the same.
I think FSA is a good school for those that want that type of environment but it's hardly going to make your resume stand out of the pack. Experience, hours, and ratings is what does that....and that's how it should be.
Sprint100
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The funniest thing about this is I don't even have a dawg in the fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since that is the case, why are you posting?
[ QUOTE ]
It's never going to be my problem as it's really only an issue at the regional level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since that is the case, why are you posting?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm soooo glad I'll never be a regional Capt faced with babysitting some low time F/O who did the program.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since that is the case, why are you posting?
[ QUOTE ]
And no, I won't be changing my mind...
[/ QUOTE ]
Since that is the case, why are you posting? That has already been established.
The funniest thing about this is I don't even have a dawg in the fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since that is the case, why are you posting?
[ QUOTE ]
It's never going to be my problem as it's really only an issue at the regional level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since that is the case, why are you posting?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm soooo glad I'll never be a regional Capt faced with babysitting some low time F/O who did the program.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since that is the case, why are you posting?
[ QUOTE ]
And no, I won't be changing my mind...
[/ QUOTE ]
Since that is the case, why are you posting? That has already been established.
fender_jag
Well-Known Member
DE,
I do respect your viewpoints, but I'd like to know: Let's say you're currently a low-time guy (600-1000 hours) just offered your first interview with a regional. You're happy instructing but want to move on. Would you take the interview, and, subsequently, the job?
I do respect your viewpoints, but I'd like to know: Let's say you're currently a low-time guy (600-1000 hours) just offered your first interview with a regional. You're happy instructing but want to move on. Would you take the interview, and, subsequently, the job?
Sprint100
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Could be cause I think people here might be interested in what a UPS 757/767 driver has to say.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm interested to hear it too, but not from a close-minded, biased pilot. Those are the same type of guys that look at me funny when I walk into an FBO the first time, they're all like 'Boy, what are you doing here'
[ QUOTE ]
Sprint, would you like me to stop posting?
[/ QUOTE ]
You can do whatever you want. This isn't my board or life to shut anybody up.
Could be cause I think people here might be interested in what a UPS 757/767 driver has to say.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm interested to hear it too, but not from a close-minded, biased pilot. Those are the same type of guys that look at me funny when I walk into an FBO the first time, they're all like 'Boy, what are you doing here'
[ QUOTE ]
Sprint, would you like me to stop posting?
[/ QUOTE ]
You can do whatever you want. This isn't my board or life to shut anybody up.
[ QUOTE ]
DE,
I do respect your viewpoints, but I'd like to know: Let's say you're currently a low-time guy (600-1000 hours) just offered your first interview with a regional. You're happy instructing but want to move on. Would you take the interview, and, subsequently, the job?
[/ QUOTE ]
Herein lies the quandry.
Neutrally speaking, I think where most of the pilots that feel "the regionals are bringing the industry down," feel it from this area. With so many pilots desiring to fly jets, move up, etc; management owns the ball. Jon Ornstein, the Mesa Airlines CEO, sums it up brilliantly with this:
"..... look, of course they're [pilots] overpaid. They cut the pay of employees at US Airways by 50 percent and not one person quit as a result, so why the hell was US Airways paying double what they needed to?"
And you know what? He's absolutely, 100% right. No one here wants to admit it, but he is (albeit in a sick kind of way, but right nonetheless). He knows damn good and well that he could pay his pilots a little more than beans, cut their QOL to nothing, and you know what? At the end of the day, he's STILL have tons of resumes on his desk, with more coming in. That's the problem. It's as simple as that. TONS of pilots would love to just fly a jet, so they're willing to do it for nothing. How is any progress in pay or QOL supposed to happen, when pilots are constantly undercutting each other. Sure, pilots will talk about solidarity, working for better benefits, etc. But those with SJS (sadly, the majority of newbies), will turn right around and jump at the chance to fly for nothing. And so the circle continues. This mainly happens at regionals. Everyone knows the way it is, everyone complains about it; yet everyone will be the first to get their foot in the door, stomping over anyone else in their path, in order to get to that right seat and wear a white shirt with 3 stripes. What does this tell management? Well, it reaffirms to people like JO that pilots are suckers that are a dime a dozen......why pay them more, when they're fully willing to work for less?
And that, my friends, is economic brilliance.....sick or not.
Pilots have no one to blame for their situation with the bar lowering, but themselves. Sure, management is a bunch of pricks who take advantage of the pilots. But management is only taking the advantage that pilots give to them with every new doe-eyed, SJS-wanting, 3-stripe salivating, FNG that comes down the pike.
And that, my friends, is a fact.
And THAT, more than anything, is why I personally believe many of the high-time guys resent the regionals.
DE,
I do respect your viewpoints, but I'd like to know: Let's say you're currently a low-time guy (600-1000 hours) just offered your first interview with a regional. You're happy instructing but want to move on. Would you take the interview, and, subsequently, the job?
[/ QUOTE ]
Herein lies the quandry.
Neutrally speaking, I think where most of the pilots that feel "the regionals are bringing the industry down," feel it from this area. With so many pilots desiring to fly jets, move up, etc; management owns the ball. Jon Ornstein, the Mesa Airlines CEO, sums it up brilliantly with this:
"..... look, of course they're [pilots] overpaid. They cut the pay of employees at US Airways by 50 percent and not one person quit as a result, so why the hell was US Airways paying double what they needed to?"
And you know what? He's absolutely, 100% right. No one here wants to admit it, but he is (albeit in a sick kind of way, but right nonetheless). He knows damn good and well that he could pay his pilots a little more than beans, cut their QOL to nothing, and you know what? At the end of the day, he's STILL have tons of resumes on his desk, with more coming in. That's the problem. It's as simple as that. TONS of pilots would love to just fly a jet, so they're willing to do it for nothing. How is any progress in pay or QOL supposed to happen, when pilots are constantly undercutting each other. Sure, pilots will talk about solidarity, working for better benefits, etc. But those with SJS (sadly, the majority of newbies), will turn right around and jump at the chance to fly for nothing. And so the circle continues. This mainly happens at regionals. Everyone knows the way it is, everyone complains about it; yet everyone will be the first to get their foot in the door, stomping over anyone else in their path, in order to get to that right seat and wear a white shirt with 3 stripes. What does this tell management? Well, it reaffirms to people like JO that pilots are suckers that are a dime a dozen......why pay them more, when they're fully willing to work for less?
And that, my friends, is economic brilliance.....sick or not.
Pilots have no one to blame for their situation with the bar lowering, but themselves. Sure, management is a bunch of pricks who take advantage of the pilots. But management is only taking the advantage that pilots give to them with every new doe-eyed, SJS-wanting, 3-stripe salivating, FNG that comes down the pike.
And that, my friends, is a fact.
And THAT, more than anything, is why I personally believe many of the high-time guys resent the regionals.
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
TONS of pilots would love to just fly a jet, so they're willing to do it for nothing. How is any progress in pay or QOL supposed to happen, when pilots are constantly undercutting each other. Sure, pilots will talk about solidarity, working for better benefits, etc. But those with SJS (sadly, the majority of newbies)
[/ QUOTE ]
What else can I say other than this "perception" is false, both speaking for myself and for the guys I trained with. Again, like flychicaga said earlier, we'd definitely still be doing this if we were flying C310's instead of ERJ's, simply from a fiscal standpoint. Blanketing "the majority of newbies" as "sjs infested jet [censored]" is blatantly innaccurate, in my humble opinion. I chose employment with a regional airline not because I was dying to fly a brazillian made WSCoD or because I hated flying C172's all day, but rather, I knew there was no way I'd ever crack 30, maybe 40k if continued instructing.
Back when I hit the 800 hour mark as a CFI and started sending out applications to outfits like Airnet, Expressjet, and Chautauqua I knew I was probably going to take the first job offer I recieved, and I did. I was eager to find more money and better QOL, regardless if that meant a BE55 or an EMB145. Truth be known, I really wanted to work for Airnet back then, but at the time, I was barely getting 40 hours of business a month as an instructor. You can do the math and see how long it would take me to qualify for a 135 outfit like airnet. I took the path of least resistance and joined the ranks of a regional jet operator.
When faced with $18,000 per year perpetually and no benefits, vs. one year at $20,000 with an average 30% pay raise every year, plus the opporutnity to increase your qualifications to a level competitive for a "major airline job", it simply makes fiscal sense for the newly minted commercial pilot/CFI to seek employment at a regional airline. I'm not saying it's the only choice. People like Lloyd have proven that you can make a solid living off instructing if you play your cards right. Then again, we aren't all dealt hands that should be played that way.
In summary, I simply believe that the percieved desire among new pilots to "fly jets" is overblown. I think that the desire to make more money and obtain decent QOL are the driving forces behind most career choices.
TONS of pilots would love to just fly a jet, so they're willing to do it for nothing. How is any progress in pay or QOL supposed to happen, when pilots are constantly undercutting each other. Sure, pilots will talk about solidarity, working for better benefits, etc. But those with SJS (sadly, the majority of newbies)
[/ QUOTE ]
What else can I say other than this "perception" is false, both speaking for myself and for the guys I trained with. Again, like flychicaga said earlier, we'd definitely still be doing this if we were flying C310's instead of ERJ's, simply from a fiscal standpoint. Blanketing "the majority of newbies" as "sjs infested jet [censored]" is blatantly innaccurate, in my humble opinion. I chose employment with a regional airline not because I was dying to fly a brazillian made WSCoD or because I hated flying C172's all day, but rather, I knew there was no way I'd ever crack 30, maybe 40k if continued instructing.
Back when I hit the 800 hour mark as a CFI and started sending out applications to outfits like Airnet, Expressjet, and Chautauqua I knew I was probably going to take the first job offer I recieved, and I did. I was eager to find more money and better QOL, regardless if that meant a BE55 or an EMB145. Truth be known, I really wanted to work for Airnet back then, but at the time, I was barely getting 40 hours of business a month as an instructor. You can do the math and see how long it would take me to qualify for a 135 outfit like airnet. I took the path of least resistance and joined the ranks of a regional jet operator.
When faced with $18,000 per year perpetually and no benefits, vs. one year at $20,000 with an average 30% pay raise every year, plus the opporutnity to increase your qualifications to a level competitive for a "major airline job", it simply makes fiscal sense for the newly minted commercial pilot/CFI to seek employment at a regional airline. I'm not saying it's the only choice. People like Lloyd have proven that you can make a solid living off instructing if you play your cards right. Then again, we aren't all dealt hands that should be played that way.
In summary, I simply believe that the percieved desire among new pilots to "fly jets" is overblown. I think that the desire to make more money and obtain decent QOL are the driving forces behind most career choices.
[ QUOTE ]
What else can I say other than this "perception" is false, both speaking for myself and for the guys I trained with. Again, like flychicaga said earlier, we'd definitely still be doing this if we were flying C310's instead of ERJ's, simply from a fiscal standpoint. Blanketing "the majority of newbies" as "sjs infested jet [censored]" is blatantly innaccurate, in my humble opinion. I chose employment with a regional airline not because I was dying to fly a brazillian made WSCoD or because I hated flying C172's all day, but rather, I knew there was no way I'd ever crack 30, maybe 40k if continued instructing.
Back when I hit the 800 hour mark as a CFI and started sending out applications to outfits like Airnet, Expressjet, and Chautauqua I knew I was probably going to take the first job offer I recieved, and I did. I was eager to find more money and better QOL, regardless if that meant a BE55 or an EMB145. Truth be known, I really wanted to work for Airnet back then, but at the time, I was barely getting 40 hours of business a month as an instructor. You can do the math and see how long it would take me to qualify for a 135 outfit like airnet. I took the path of least resistance and joined the ranks of a regional jet operator.
When faced with $18,000 per year perpetually and no benefits, vs. one year at $20,000 with an average 30% pay raise every year, plus the opporutnity to increase your qualifications to a level competitive for a "major airline job", it simply makes fiscal sense for the newly minted commercial pilot/CFI to seek employment at a regional airline. I'm not saying it's the only choice. People like Lloyd have proven that you can make a solid living off instructing if you play your cards right. Then again, we aren't all dealt hands that should be played that way.
Trying to articulate arguments like these does little good in the end, especially when we have the spectre of flagship 3701 staring us in the face, but I'm strangely compelled to defend msyelf from the stinging stigma that's consistently slagged in the direction of today's regional FO's, bottom feeders of the industry that we may be. I guess the real question I should be asking myself: "Don't you have something better to be doing?"
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I apprerciate your well thought-out and written reply, but remember....don't kill the messenger.
I'm trying to look at both sides of the argument here, and what I wrote above, reflects to the best of my ability what I see the high timers talking about. The facts/figures regards JO and his outlook on pilots, pilot pay, and the like; is fact and deduction all my own. He' definitely is able to do as he pleases for one reason and one reason only:
Because he can.
Would anyone expect him, as a businessman, to not take the advantage being given to him daily by a majority of his employees.....especially with tons of fish in the pond waiting to be picked out and hired?
What else can I say other than this "perception" is false, both speaking for myself and for the guys I trained with. Again, like flychicaga said earlier, we'd definitely still be doing this if we were flying C310's instead of ERJ's, simply from a fiscal standpoint. Blanketing "the majority of newbies" as "sjs infested jet [censored]" is blatantly innaccurate, in my humble opinion. I chose employment with a regional airline not because I was dying to fly a brazillian made WSCoD or because I hated flying C172's all day, but rather, I knew there was no way I'd ever crack 30, maybe 40k if continued instructing.
Back when I hit the 800 hour mark as a CFI and started sending out applications to outfits like Airnet, Expressjet, and Chautauqua I knew I was probably going to take the first job offer I recieved, and I did. I was eager to find more money and better QOL, regardless if that meant a BE55 or an EMB145. Truth be known, I really wanted to work for Airnet back then, but at the time, I was barely getting 40 hours of business a month as an instructor. You can do the math and see how long it would take me to qualify for a 135 outfit like airnet. I took the path of least resistance and joined the ranks of a regional jet operator.
When faced with $18,000 per year perpetually and no benefits, vs. one year at $20,000 with an average 30% pay raise every year, plus the opporutnity to increase your qualifications to a level competitive for a "major airline job", it simply makes fiscal sense for the newly minted commercial pilot/CFI to seek employment at a regional airline. I'm not saying it's the only choice. People like Lloyd have proven that you can make a solid living off instructing if you play your cards right. Then again, we aren't all dealt hands that should be played that way.
Trying to articulate arguments like these does little good in the end, especially when we have the spectre of flagship 3701 staring us in the face, but I'm strangely compelled to defend msyelf from the stinging stigma that's consistently slagged in the direction of today's regional FO's, bottom feeders of the industry that we may be. I guess the real question I should be asking myself: "Don't you have something better to be doing?"
[/ QUOTE ]
I apprerciate your well thought-out and written reply, but remember....don't kill the messenger.
I'm trying to look at both sides of the argument here, and what I wrote above, reflects to the best of my ability what I see the high timers talking about. The facts/figures regards JO and his outlook on pilots, pilot pay, and the like; is fact and deduction all my own. He' definitely is able to do as he pleases for one reason and one reason only:
Because he can.
Would anyone expect him, as a businessman, to not take the advantage being given to him daily by a majority of his employees.....especially with tons of fish in the pond waiting to be picked out and hired?
Here's the other problem I see.
Personally, I believe that regional pilots do pretty much the same job as a domestic mainline pilot. Subtle differences are minor.......maybe leg lengths, maybe destinations, and of course equipment flown. However, for all the similiarities between the two jobs, the pay disparity is pretty darn large. Why is that (rhetorically speaking)? Why is it seemingly so much easier to shaft a regional pilot than a mainline one? I believe it's because of the cutthroat nature of the regional business. As JO said, with so many resumes of those waiting to work for beans, why should I give anything to those already here? So, no matter how much the regional pilot groups try to take a stand and work for better and very much deserved pay and QOL, they'll constantly be getting their legs cut out from under them, due to the very fact that there's always someone out there (many, really) willing to work the job for less. And the absolute worst part of it, IMHO, are some I've seen that come on this very forum, and actually defend the extremely low pay of regionals as "it's always been that way", or "everyone starts out low". The former doesn't cut it and is an excuse to do nothing about a problem, IMO. The latter is a total cop out......sure, initial pay is low, but does that mean it should be unliveable? Some of the low pay, even for the first few years at some places, is abhorrent. To me, that mindset is what gets many of the hightimers to look at some of the regionals and their pilots as whoring themselves out to management. It's felt that this method of thinking, and of simply bending over and taking it because "it's always been that way", will work it's way into a trickle-up theory......with mainline CEOs asking the same questions that JO does. Questions like "my mainline guys do the same thing as these regional guys, but with only about 40 more seats. Why should I pay my guys any more than these guys?", might start getting asked, if they're not being asked already. And soon, there will be no difference between mainline and regional flying, because all flying will eventually be brought down to the "regional standard", as it'll likely become known as.
This is where I think many of the high timers are coming. They might not have a dog in the fight now, but the results of the fight being fought now, will eventually affect them later.
Question is, what can be done about the problems at regionals? Is it a battle that can be fought and won, or is it a losing battle altogether? I personally think regional start pay should be livelable and reasonable.....maybe say, $50K starting for an FO. But that's just me. So long as it's accepted by pilots that they're only worth $19K per year, management will continue to be happy to oblige them and pay them no more than beans.
Because there's always 50 more waiting to do your job for less.......
And that's more of where I think some of the people here are coming from.
Personally, I believe that regional pilots do pretty much the same job as a domestic mainline pilot. Subtle differences are minor.......maybe leg lengths, maybe destinations, and of course equipment flown. However, for all the similiarities between the two jobs, the pay disparity is pretty darn large. Why is that (rhetorically speaking)? Why is it seemingly so much easier to shaft a regional pilot than a mainline one? I believe it's because of the cutthroat nature of the regional business. As JO said, with so many resumes of those waiting to work for beans, why should I give anything to those already here? So, no matter how much the regional pilot groups try to take a stand and work for better and very much deserved pay and QOL, they'll constantly be getting their legs cut out from under them, due to the very fact that there's always someone out there (many, really) willing to work the job for less. And the absolute worst part of it, IMHO, are some I've seen that come on this very forum, and actually defend the extremely low pay of regionals as "it's always been that way", or "everyone starts out low". The former doesn't cut it and is an excuse to do nothing about a problem, IMO. The latter is a total cop out......sure, initial pay is low, but does that mean it should be unliveable? Some of the low pay, even for the first few years at some places, is abhorrent. To me, that mindset is what gets many of the hightimers to look at some of the regionals and their pilots as whoring themselves out to management. It's felt that this method of thinking, and of simply bending over and taking it because "it's always been that way", will work it's way into a trickle-up theory......with mainline CEOs asking the same questions that JO does. Questions like "my mainline guys do the same thing as these regional guys, but with only about 40 more seats. Why should I pay my guys any more than these guys?", might start getting asked, if they're not being asked already. And soon, there will be no difference between mainline and regional flying, because all flying will eventually be brought down to the "regional standard", as it'll likely become known as.
This is where I think many of the high timers are coming. They might not have a dog in the fight now, but the results of the fight being fought now, will eventually affect them later.
Question is, what can be done about the problems at regionals? Is it a battle that can be fought and won, or is it a losing battle altogether? I personally think regional start pay should be livelable and reasonable.....maybe say, $50K starting for an FO. But that's just me. So long as it's accepted by pilots that they're only worth $19K per year, management will continue to be happy to oblige them and pay them no more than beans.
Because there's always 50 more waiting to do your job for less.......
And that's more of where I think some of the people here are coming from.