How long before this ends badly?

Champcar

Champcar

Well-Known Member
Just seems crazy, why can't this be done at a few thousand feet?. How long before a nasty gust of wind puts this DC-10 into the dirt?

 
Wiki'd

Skeptics have argued that the DC10s lack maneuverability.[7] However, despite its size, field experience has proven the plane’s agility above all types of terrain and in all atmospheric conditions deemed suitable for fixed wing operations in a Fire Traffic Area (FTA).[8]

"The plane does not know what terrain is under it," says 10 Tanker President Rick Hatton.[9]

Unlike most existing and proposed Large Air Tankers (LATs), The 10 arrives at an FTA weighing significantly less than its certified MGTOW (Maximum Gross Takeoff Weight.) This is principally due to the reduced fuel load carried on fire missions.

As a result:

· The 10 frequently dispatches at a takeoff weight 40% lighter than its certified MGTOW.

· The 10 turns comfortably within the turn radii of smaller aircraft including seats and lead planes.

· The 10’s improved thrust to weight ratio significantly increases vertical performance (climb), and greatly enhances safety margins in a failed engine scenario.

· The 10 enjoys a wide margin above stall at typical drop speeds and weights, even with a full retardant load.[6]

One drop from Tanker 910 is equivalent to 12 drops from a Grumman S-2 Tracker.[10] Initially, the aircraft was intended to be operated primarily in California, and the entire state was serviced from the plane's Victorville base, but in 2007 CDF began looking into setting up a second operations base at the formerMather Air Force Base near Sacramento, California.[7] 10 Tanker Air Carrier announced in 2007 that a second aircraft would be converted to tanker usage for the 2008 fire season.[7]
 
I think having it fly that high would negate the entire purpose of the plane in the first place... I don't think it's any more susceptible to gusts of wind than any of the other largish planes used for the same role. Only thing I can think of is that it's flying closer to its stall speed, but I'd assume they would have enough of a buffer zone there to account for a recovery if conditions were to suddenly change.
 
Funny that this comes up today. As of Friday, I had no idea that they've been using heavies for fire-fighting purposes. After that amazing discovery, I spent the next 2 hours Youtubing every video I could of the DC10 and 747 ( :eek: ) dropping retardant. What an friggin' incredible job that must be.

And yes... some serious genius went into making this possible. To answer the question regarding the altitude, they have to fly low, like all other retardant planes, because the material dropped would become far too dispersed to be effective at all. It would just completely dissipate before it ever touched the ground.

One source I read (it was a quote from a fireman on the ground) said that a single pass by the DC10 over one particular fire made more of an impact than an entire day of combined helo and S2 drops. 12,000 gallons per carry, which is usually dispersed over four passes. That's a hell of a lot of material.

There was one incident fairly early on in the DC10's fire fighting career. In a turn from base to final (I presume they essentially make the same sort of downwind/base/final approach to a drop that they would make for landing... if you watch the video, with the exception of landing gear it looks like the aircraft is even configured for landing), the aircraft experienced severe turbulence, dropped a few hundred feet and the left wing clipped the tops of some trees. :eek2: After climbing out and dropping retardant, it went home for repairs. Was flying again in a few months.

To my knowledge, there are currently two DC10's and one 747 (Evergreen). If you thought watching the 10's dropping 12,000 gallons was amazing, you should check out the 747 dropping 24,000.

 
Champcar said:
Just seems crazy, why can't this be done at a few thousand feet?. How long before a nasty gust of wind puts this DC-10 into the dirt?

Click to expand...


How much heavy jet time do you have flying in an environment like this? How many fire drops have you made? Have you ever worked in air attack?

There are a lot of pilots out there who are very good at what they do. Just because you don't understand how it woks, doesn't make it dangerous. Sure, there's more risk involved than flying a DC-10 full of boxes from point A to B. These pilots accept that risk, and through their training, skill and ability to work together as a crew, a lot of the risk is mitigated. There are those out there who view the airplane as tool to get a job done, not just for hauling people and cargo around.
 
So what exactly are they dropping, and how long does it take to refill the aircraft before it can go back out?
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
How much heavy jet time do you have flying in an environment like this? How many fire drops have you made? Have you ever worked in air attack?

There are a lot of pilots out there who are very good at what they do. Just because you don't understand how it woks, doesn't make it dangerous. Sure, there's more risk involved than flying a DC-10 full of boxes from point A to B. These pilots accept that risk, and through their training, skill and ability to work together as a crew, a lot of the risk is mitigated. There are those out there who view the airplane as tool to get a job done, not just for hauling people and cargo around.
Click to expand...
 
Mark815 said:
So what exactly are they dropping, and how long does it take to refill the aircraft before it can go back out?
Click to expand...

That is fire retardant. It is water mixed with various minerals that help prevent combustion, and also act as fertilizer to help the forest grow back after the fire.

The red dye helps mark the area that has been covered.
 


So amazing. This job has got to be a blast.

"What do you do for a living?"

"Me? Oh... I toss a DC-10 around like it's my little beeeotch in some of the worst flying conditions known to man and drop 12,000 gallons of life-saving red juice from the sky. You?"

"Oh... I... uh... well... do... spreadsheets... uh.. HEY! Sally! How you doin'?"
 
It was I believe a fire in Tehachapi some years back, seems like it was the first year in service for the DC-10, where it had an incident and arrived back at George with damage to flaps and wing surfaces as well as vegetation dangling from it. How is that for a little excitement in the workday?

I also remember that year being a particularly intense fire season all over California and Nevada and the DC-10 being sorely missed by fire crews, and "demands" being made by local government officials their fire ravaged communities be given priority by the single jet, and to have it returned to service after it was damaged ASAP. One community was South Lake Tahoe, where, during the Angora Fire, people were asking, "where is Tanker 10?"

I bet the DC-10 has considerably better climb performance than the other tankers in use, especially once it jettisons the retardant. All the pilots I know who have flown the big Douglas say it is a superb handling airplane, and dont forget what the Fedex crew put one through in the fight with Auburn Calloway-they flew it like a fighter.

Anyway, seems like a great asset, hopefully the budget will allow for more to be deployed.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
 
You have to drop slurry low or you don't get effective coverage. Somewhat similar to crop dusting.
 
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