How Lively is GA where you live?

Vector4Food

Vector4Food

This job would be easier without all the airplanes
Just curious if anyone would care to comment on how active General Aviation is in their respective communities.

We have a medium-large sized flight school here which I rent aircraft from, but the costs have gone crazy lately.

$160/hour to rent a clapped out 30 year old 172, $200/hr to rent a "Modern" 172, and almost $325/hr to rent a 40 year old twin, which while maintenanced very well does not exactly invoke confidence in first time passengers.

I make a good living, but at these prices it's almost impossible to get any enjoyment out of flying anymore.

I know someone is going to say "Buy your own airplane", but unfortunately there is quite literally no hanger space at the airport, and the airport close by that has hangerage doesn't operate year round (No Winter Mntc)

Is it like this everywhere? I'll be honest, my days of job hunting are done, I enjoy my career, but I still want to go burn holes in the sky on a Sunday afternoon because I love flying...maybe exercise my CPL kicking meat bombs out during the summer from time to time, but that's about it... I fear with gas prices expected to rise it's not going to get much better either.

Hasn't anyone built a reliable skycar yet? ;)
 
Are those prices in Canadian dollars? Or USD?

General aviation is alive and well in my area, but mostly through aircraft ownership. Not so much rental. The rental fleet flies quite a bit, but mainly for training rather than pleasure/business trips.
 
Oklahoma City - Flight school & aircraft rental operator at the local GA airport rents singles from $155-$185 (USD) per hour, and the fleet consists of 2004-2008 Skyhawks + a 2002 Piper Arrow III.
 
GA is lively where I'm at. Not much training going on though. Just a bunch of weekend warriors. I think there's probably less than 10 students and its the busiest flight school in the area. Cost is $105 for a 70's 172. $125 for a 2001 172 and $150 for a 2007 G1000 172. The 310 is $260.
 
We have a pretty good amount of GA here, probably because of the excellent wx...Not as much training as I wish there were though.
 
I pay between $139 and $165 for 172SPs. The school has some 172Ns and other older 172s for $103-$129, but they're almost always booked solid since they're so much cheaper. Thus far I haven't flown the N, I'm getting checked out in it soon.

As far as how active GA is here, during the week it is mostly people doing flight training. In the winter when it gets dark early, there aren't very many students since I suppose they get off work around 5pm and its already dark. In the summer/spring/fall its very very busy from 4pm-6pm at the local airports. On weekends, the GA airports out here are always bustling.

However, when I fly in LOU, you really get a feel for the economy. When I'm out there I usually fly 4 days in a row or so doing XCs under the hood. I think in my last 4 trips or so out there I've seen another GA plane flying only once or twice, and that includes the time I spent hanging out at the airport. Very, very sad.
 
ChasenSFO said:
I pay between $139 and $165 for 172SPs. The school has some 172Ns and other older 172s for $103-$129, but they're almost always booked solid since they're so much cheaper. Thus far I haven't flown the N, I'm getting checked out in it soon.

As far as how active GA is here, during the week it is mostly people doing flight training. In the winter when it gets dark early, there aren't very many students since I suppose they get off work around 5pm and its already dark. In the summer/spring/fall its very very busy from 4pm-6pm at the local airports. On weekends, the GA airports out here are always bustling.
Click to expand...

The same situation here. Maybe 10$ per hour extra for renting.
 
ChasenSFO said:
I pay between $139 and $165 for 172SPs. The school has some 172Ns and other older 172s for $103-$129, but they're almost always booked solid since they're so much cheaper. Thus far I haven't flown the N, I'm getting checked out in it soon.

As far as how active GA is here, during the week it is mostly people doing flight training. In the winter when it gets dark early, there aren't very many students since I suppose they get off work around 5pm and its already dark. In the summer/spring/fall its very very busy from 4pm-6pm at the local airports. On weekends, the GA airports out here are always bustling.
Click to expand...
That's about the shape of things here at CMA too. The Excedrin days are Saturdays where the weather is better than 5,000 and 5 and the cafeteria is serving tri-tip, and summer afternoons/evenings. We do have a small contingent of professional hopefuls that boom around during the weekdays too, but it's rather limited. Over the hill in VNY is a slightly different story.

Prices here...I forget specifically, but the 182 is a $200+/hour evolution, wet. The 172S models with the fancy screens are $165-170/hour. Dual will run you anywhere from $45/hour up...for CFI instruction the local FBO wants $70/hour (!!!). (What's worse is I now sit on the side where I can see the Hobbs! :) )

However, when I fly in LOU, you really get a feel for the economy. When I'm out there I usually fly 4 days in a row or so doing XCs under the hood. I think in my last 4 trips or so out there I've seen another GA plane flying only once or twice, and that includes the time I spent hanging out at the airport. Very, very sad.
Click to expand...
I flew across the country (CAE-CMA) at the height of the fuel prices ($7+ a gallon at PWK, eat your heart out). We didn't hear a single non-airline airplane on the frequency until we got to SoCal. It was rather boring in the low altitude sectors.
 
It's good here in Seattle. Prices are higher than what I'm used to but a lot of competition. Right now I'm at a really cheap flight club paying 69 wet for a C150 and 97 for a 172. Most FBOs around here charge around $130 or so for a 172. But when I did my training in Fresno CA I paid 105 for a Cherokee 140 and 110 for a 180. I didn't look much into other schools but I flew out of the smaller airport and at the commercial airport there were also a few schools but I think they were expensive. You can find cheap gas here in WA but also some places are very expensive.
 
The airport I used to rent at last year was $59 wet for the champ, 102 for the citabria, 97 for the 172N. I talked to the owner many times and he said he much prefers having the planes in the air 7 days a week at a lower margin then having them sit. He said he makes more money that way anyways, because with them running that often, there are more hours between things breaking, plus it more than makes up for the lower margin.

scooter, I have never seen a 58 or 210 to rent outright. The flying club back home had a 210 that was $58 dry on tach time. That required a 2500 buy in and $85 per month in dues.
 
ChasenSFO said:
There is a 210 at one of the clubs at SQL. I have to double check how much it costs, one of the ramp sups I work with flies it all the time. I've never heard of a Baron for rent.
Click to expand...

We had a -210 on the line at one time - it's the FBO's owner's machine. It came off the line because of renter pilots shock cooling it. (Not a myth as far as that power plant is concerned, apparently. Use "otherwise mismanaging the engines" if you prefer.)
 
Mostly weekend warriors at KTRL, flight school is fairly active, the planes rent about half as much - most the traffic during the week is other flight schools that bring the entertainment. $115 for a 172N... $200 for an Apache on the field.
 
z987k said:
The airport I used to rent at last year was $59 wet for the champ, 102 for the citabria, 97 for the 172N. I talked to the owner many times and he said he much prefers having the planes in the air 7 days a week at a lower margin then having them sit.
Click to expand...

I think it's interesting how most people equate rental rates to flight usage.

In my experience, the people who are going to fly, fly, and the people are aren't, don't.

I bet those airplanes were flying a lot because they're really cool airplanes and the airport had a cool culture, rather than the fact that they're cheap.

People get so wrapped up in discussions about if a plane costs $110 or $125/hour. Seriously? That $15/hour is the difference between you flying or not flying? I don't think so. If you can afford $110 you can afford $125, or else you can't afford it at all.

I talked to a flight school owner who was having a hard time during the economic recession. He wanted to encourage flying, so he dropped his rates a full $20/hour. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like $135 to $115. Basically put them on the line at cost.

Want to know how much of an increase he saw? None. Nada. Zip. Same as he'd been doing for the past several months. After a month or two of these low rates, he said, "Forget this, I'm going to turn a profit again," so he put the prices back where they'd been. Want to know how much of a decrease he saw? None. Everybody flew the exact same amount, regardless of price.

Now, I'm not saying prices don't matter. Take anything to an extreme and it will have an impact. I'm just saying, most people talk about price like it's the top priority. I'd say it's more like the 4th or 5th priority for people, behind things like aircraft availability, reliability, speed, carrying capacity, ease of rental checkouts, location of the airport, etc. This is why two different airports with similar aircraft at similar prices can have vastly different cultures and levels of success.

If a person has determined flying is too expensive for them, that's too bad. They probably won't fly again until they adjust their expectations. It's not a matter of price, it's a matter of the overall experience.
 
Around here things stay pretty busy about march through early december when weather gets bad. I fly both power and gliders. Things did slow down late 2008 into 2009 when the economy first tanked. Since then things have picked back up. Same as most flight schools. During the weekdays in summer is busy 6pm-dark and all day on the weekends when weather is good. At the glider airport we didnt see a drop when the economy collapsed like in powered flying. Mostly I think because it much cheaper.
 
BED is pretty damn busy...Does anyone know where it ranks in busiest GA airports? It has to be up there somewhere....
 
jrh said:
I think it's interesting how most people equate rental rates to flight usage.

In my experience, the people who are going to fly, fly, and the people are aren't, don't.

I bet those airplanes were flying a lot because they're really cool airplanes and the airport had a cool culture, rather than the fact that they're cheap.

People get so wrapped up in discussions about if a plane costs $110 or $125/hour. Seriously? That $15/hour is the difference between you flying or not flying? I don't think so. If you can afford $110 you can afford $125, or else you can't afford it at all.

I talked to a flight school owner who was having a hard time during the economic recession. He wanted to encourage flying, so he dropped his rates a full $20/hour. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like $135 to $115. Basically put them on the line at cost.

Want to know how much of an increase he saw? None. Nada. Zip. Same as he'd been doing for the past several months. After a month or two of these low rates, he said, "Forget this, I'm going to turn a profit again," so he put the prices back where they'd been. Want to know how much of a decrease he saw? None. Everybody flew the exact same amount, regardless of price.

Now, I'm not saying prices don't matter. Take anything to an extreme and it will have an impact. I'm just saying, most people talk about price like it's the top priority. I'd say it's more like the 4th or 5th priority for people, behind things like aircraft availability, reliability, speed, carrying capacity, ease of rental checkouts, location of the airport, etc. This is why two different airports with similar aircraft at similar prices can have vastly different cultures and levels of success.

If a person has determined flying is too expensive for them, that's too bad. They probably won't fly again until they adjust their expectations. It's not a matter of price, it's a matter of the overall experience.
Click to expand...

It may be hard to say. To be honest I'd never rent a 172 for 130 an hour. I don't care what kind of panel it has. Also, I rented that champ a good bit because I can fly it twice as long on the same money and made it affordable to just go up for an hour or something. $40 an hour is a lot, and at just $60 an hour if nothing else, the number seems a good bit smaller and is easier to justify. While I doubt the low prices brought in that many more people, I do think that the people who did rent them, rented them more.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top