How hot is too hot for flight training?

[Mike H]

Here at already high altitude, we're grounded at 90º F for the 160 HP or less and 95ºF for everything else due to Density Altitudes becomnig unsafe for operations. Students sweat on every flight regardless of temperature, but when the heat makes the instructors sweat, it's time to do some ground instuction

 

[Alaska45]

Here at already high altitude, we're grounded at 90º F for the 160 HP or less and 95ºF for everything else due to Density Altitudes becomnig unsafe for operations. Students sweat on every flight regardless of temperature, but when the heat makes the instructors sweat, it's time to do some ground instuction

How is the density altitude unsafe? I have flown numerous airplanes out of KBJC and other CO airports with temps above 95F. Even a C150 did just fine out of KBJC when the temp was 98F. There are long runways with nothing to run into.

A 160hp 172 will still easily get up to 10,000msl with 2 up front and full fuel when the density altitude is above 8,000 on the ground. (5600ish).

A friend of mine up here in Alaska, who hopefully will tell this story here, has flown a C152 with a student into Leadville in summer! The density altitude was probably around 13K+ on departure.

 

[A150K]

Here at already high altitude, we're grounded at 90º F for the 160 HP or less and 95ºF for everything else due to Density Altitudes becomnig unsafe for operations. Students sweat on every flight regardless of temperature, but when the heat makes the instructors sweat, it's time to do some ground instuction

DEN is basically on the plains. I fail to see what is unsafe. We'll take off from SAF (6348 MSL, DALT regualarly above 9000) when it's 95+ and it's no problem in a 172 or 150 (150hp) just as long as you don't head northeast into the mountains. I won't argue with the uncomfortable part though.

 

[A150K]

A friend of mine up here in Alaska, who hopefully will tell this story here, has flown a C152 with a student into Leadville in summer! The density altitude was probably around 13K+ on departure.

Yikes. Did it have any kind of engine conversion or the stock O-235?

 

[Ian_J]

We had Boeing ship us out 55C charts to Iraq because we needed them, but in reality, even with the body armor, chicken plate, and being covered head to toe we had no temperature restrictions, aircraft or personal. We had no "special" training to deal with the heat except for a focus on hydration, so I'm guessing if we could do it all dressed up anyone could do it wearing shorts and a t-shirt in a Cessna if they had to. For a personal flight, no way. For a revenue flight, not much of an excuse.

 

[bunk22]

We had Boeing ship us out 55C charts to Iraq because we needed them, but in reality, even with the body armor, chicken plate, and being covered head to toe we had no temperature restrictions, aircraft or personal. We had no "special" training to deal with the heat except for a focus on hydration, so I'm guessing if we could do it all dressed up anyone could do it wearing shorts and a t-shirt in a Cessna if they had to. For a personal flight, no way. For a revenue flight, not much of an excuse.

Concur. Kind of my point in that we military guys do it with all that gear on in hot, miserable places. Doing it with regular clothes on should be a cinch.

 

[Soku39]

Oh that argument again. op:

Edit to add: I guess all those airplanes flying in and out of Vegas during the summer are breaking regs then?

If the company says no flying past 40C, then there is no flying past 40C. I operate the airplanes as I am told as long as it is within the regs. That's how its been and will always be until your name is on the registration.

 

[Ayork62493]

Never too hot for it, if the student wants to go fly, then do it.
For pleasure flights, the Heat index here today was 117... No can do on a flight for pleasure. I'll go enjoy the AC

 

[Rudabega]

Hot day? Climb high and work on stalls. It's cooler up there.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Good day to teach interpolation.

You mean extrapolation.

Edit: SteveC beat me to it.

I've never quit a lesson because it's hot, but I won't hesitate to look for a cooler place if it's 100F at altitude...

 

[Ajax]

While it may be hot and uncomfortable I don't cancel flights for the heat, if anything I use it as a tool to demonstrate how a/c performance suffers. I've got a few ppl students in our 150 and we go flying in that during the 100+ Texas heat. We have a few strips around here that I won't go to in the afternoon, but that's a safety issue. I've got a large minifridge in my office filled with water bottles, so I just grab a few before each flight.

I was out on the tarmac the other day observing my student's first solo, and while we don't do the solo water bucket thing I wouldn't have minded it after 40 minutes standing at the hold short line.

 

[Mike H]

How is the density altitude unsafe? I have flown numerous airplanes out of KBJC and other CO airports with temps above 95F. Even a C150 did just fine out of KBJC when the temp was 98F. There are long runways with nothing to run into.

A 160hp 172 will still easily get up to 10,000msl with 2 up front and full fuel when the density altitude is above 8,000 on the ground. (5600ish).

A friend of mine up here in Alaska, who hopefully will tell this story here, has flown a C152 with a student into Leadville in summer! The density altitude was probably around 13K+ on departure.

I'll be charitible and just say you don't know what the blazes you're talking about.

Another thing to consider: is there really anything productive going to be accomplished with a student- especially a primary student- in extremely high temperatures and very high density altitudes? They may learn how poorly the airplane performs in those conditions, and although that's a pretty important lesson, they're not likely to learn much of anything else.

 

[Alaska45]

I'll be charitible and just say you don't know what the blazes you're talking about.

Another thing to consider: is there really anything productive going to be accomplished with a student- especially a primary student- in extremely high temperatures and very high density altitudes? They may learn how poorly the airplane performs in those conditions, and although that's a pretty important lesson, they're not likely to learn much of anything else.

I am not a Certified Flight Instuctor, just a Bush Pilot. I do know what I don't know which is a lot.

Is there a reason why it is unsafe to fly out of KBJC on a 100F day in a C172? I sure didn't have any problems, but if you feel unsafe climbing at 350-400FPM then absolutely don't take the risk and stick to your personal minimums.

As far as your students not learning anything other than the airplane performs even worse at 8,500 density altitudes in summer, why wouldn't they?

I did some of my primary flight training out of KBJC in summer. The airplane performed well enough to bounce off the huge runways and do stalls as well as any other day. I would rather be in 95F heat in a piston Cessna with the windows open wearing shorts than -20F in the winter up here.

 

[ryan1234]

You mean extrapolation.

Edit: SteveC beat me to it.

I've never quit a lesson because it's hot, but I won't hesitate to look for a cooler place if it's 100F at altitude...

I know, I know... you guys are math and English whizzes!

I'm just a pilot:bandit:

 

[derg]

We are the Borg Collective. What one being does not know, another does. Resistance is futile.

 

[ryan1234]

I'll be charitible and just say you don't know what the blazes you're talking about.

Another thing to consider: is there really anything productive going to be accomplished with a student- especially a primary student- in extremely high temperatures and very high density altitudes? They may learn how poorly the airplane performs in those conditions, and although that's a pretty important lesson, they're not likely to learn much of anything else.

It's all relative... lots of people consider flying single engine props at night to be too much of a risk, others say flying long distances over water is an unnecessary risk, formation, aerobatics, etc.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

If the company says no flying past 40C, then there is no flying past 40C. I operate the airplanes as I am told as long as it is within the regs. That's how its been and will always be until your name is on the registration.

Yes indeed.

"Company policy" is, in fact, a valid excuse.

 

[Mike H]

Is there a reason why it is unsafe to fly out of KBJC on a 100F day in a C172? I sure didn't have any problems, but if you feel unsafe climbing at 350-400FPM then absolutely don't take the risk and stick to your personal minimums.

First, as others have mentined about their own airports, the local flight schools' policy (remember, we're discussing training flights) is to ground their planes at temperatures that typically put DA at or above 9000ft. At BJC, that's usually around 95ºF Also, on very hot days around here, you won't get anywhere near a standard lapse rate. Instead of 10º cooler at 5000AGL, you may only get 2º to 5º cooler, which in turn increases DA, which further dcreases performance.

Second, rather than 350-400fpm in the climb think more along the lines of half that- mostly beause that's the best you can typically get, but also to keep the engine from overheating.

As far as your students not learning anything other than the airplane performs even worse at 8,500 density altitudes in summer, why wouldn't they?

It's not that they don't learn anything, it's that because of the heat, there isn't much productive to be accomplished. The heat itself becomes a distraction.

Beyond that, there are times that,as CFI's, we ought to be asking ourselves what it is we're trying to do. Are we trying to teach our students to enjoy flying, or are we trying to prove a point? You can bet it's not lost on them.

 

[MikeD]

It's not that they don't learn anything, it's that because of the heat, there isn't much productive to be accomplished. The heat itself becomes a distraction.

Beyond that, there are times that,as CFI's, we ought to be asking ourselves what it is we're trying to do. Are we trying to teach our students to enjoy flying, or are we trying to prove a point? You can bet it's not lost on them.

I want your D.O.R. Mayo......spell it: D-O-R!!

 

[Mike H]

:laff: :laff: :laff:

I AIN'T GONNA QUIT!

I GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO